Mailvox: rethinking Paterno
Adognameop asks about the Vox, What do you make of the recent FBI report regarding Penn State? It seems to reveal what everybody already knew; that Paterno was an accomplice to child rape. Does it affect your opinion of Paterno?
First, I would note that Paterno's actions did not, in any way, make him "an accomplice to child rape". An an accomplice is a person who is present at the scene of the crime, actively participates in its commission, and has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties. None of this applies to Paterno.
So, let's take a look at what Paterno actually did, as opposed to the rhetorical exaggerations of the preening moralists who are presently in competition to see who can feign the most outrage:
And yes, it does change my opinion to a certain extent. In light of the latest revelations, I think it would be appropriate for the Penn State football program to receive the death sentence for three or four years from the NCAA. That would send the most unmistakable message to everyone, and would be the one punishment that Paterno would have felt most deeply. How Penn State chooses to respond is really no concern of mine, but as a general rule, I don't favor whitewashing history. If I were the responsible individual at Penn State, I would not remove Paterno's name from the various buildings he funded and tear down his statue, but rather seek to use him as an example to teach about the dangers that hubris poses to even the most upstanding and successful.
All men are fallen. I still think Paterno was, for the most part, a good man who made a very foolish and counterproductive attempt to protect his reputation and his football program. Was it wrong? Certainly. Did it have evil consequences? Most likely. Does it merit a harsh punishment? Definitely. But was it indicative of an evil or malevolent intent? I don't believe so, and to conflate the moral failings of a Paterno with the overt and predatory evil of a Sandusky is a fundamental mistake. It is important to remember that this is not simply a Joe Paterno scandal, but rather a Penn State scandal.
The Freeh report is somewhat ironic in that Louis Freeh would certainly know a coverup when he sees one, given his involvement in similar whitewashes of Ruby Ridge and Waco.
First, I would note that Paterno's actions did not, in any way, make him "an accomplice to child rape". An an accomplice is a person who is present at the scene of the crime, actively participates in its commission, and has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties. None of this applies to Paterno.
So, let's take a look at what Paterno actually did, as opposed to the rhetorical exaggerations of the preening moralists who are presently in competition to see who can feign the most outrage:
Louis J. Freeh, the former federal judge and director of the F.B.I. who spent the last seven months examining the Sandusky scandal at Penn State, issued a damning conclusion Thursday: The most senior officials at Penn State had shown a “total and consistent disregard” for the welfare of children, had worked together to actively conceal Mr. Sandusky’s assaults, and had done so for one central reason: fear of bad publicity. That publicity, Mr. Freeh said Thursday, would have hurt the nationally ranked football program, Mr. Paterno’s reputation as a coach of high principles, the Penn State “brand” and the university’s ability to raise money as one of the most respected public institutions in the country....What is new here is that whereas before we knew that Paterno had reported Sandusky's actions to the correct authorities, now we know that he was the one primarily responsible for matters not going any further. Whereas before it appeared that his only failing was the excusable moral one of doing no more than his legally defined duty, now we know that he was the main instigator of the coverup. This is a very different thing, and I note that it is actually considerably worse than anything Paterno's most vehement critics accused him of doing previously.
Mr. Freeh’s investigation makes clear it was Mr. Paterno, long regarded as the single most powerful official at the university, who persuaded the university president and others not to report Mr. Sandusky to the authorities in 2001 after he had violently assaulted another boy in the football showers.
And yes, it does change my opinion to a certain extent. In light of the latest revelations, I think it would be appropriate for the Penn State football program to receive the death sentence for three or four years from the NCAA. That would send the most unmistakable message to everyone, and would be the one punishment that Paterno would have felt most deeply. How Penn State chooses to respond is really no concern of mine, but as a general rule, I don't favor whitewashing history. If I were the responsible individual at Penn State, I would not remove Paterno's name from the various buildings he funded and tear down his statue, but rather seek to use him as an example to teach about the dangers that hubris poses to even the most upstanding and successful.
All men are fallen. I still think Paterno was, for the most part, a good man who made a very foolish and counterproductive attempt to protect his reputation and his football program. Was it wrong? Certainly. Did it have evil consequences? Most likely. Does it merit a harsh punishment? Definitely. But was it indicative of an evil or malevolent intent? I don't believe so, and to conflate the moral failings of a Paterno with the overt and predatory evil of a Sandusky is a fundamental mistake. It is important to remember that this is not simply a Joe Paterno scandal, but rather a Penn State scandal.
The Freeh report is somewhat ironic in that Louis Freeh would certainly know a coverup when he sees one, given his involvement in similar whitewashes of Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Labels: mailvox
159 Comments:
How about "an accessory to child rape".
No.
> ...now we know that he was the main instigator of the coverup.
Yes. But in a properly functioning University, he would never have had the authority to do so.
> It is important to remember that this is not simply a Joe Paterno scandal, but rather a Penn State scandal.
Exactly. It wasn't Paterno's place to either cover up or pursue the scandal. That was the job of higher authorities. The fact that they listened to Joe Paterno on the matter is their failing, not his.
His failing is the fact that the program was more important to him than those who might have been injured and those who might yet be injured.
Some things in life are more important than a football program or even a University. I can't disagree with your assessment. Shutting down the program is almost certainly appropriate.
How about "an accessory to child rape".
No. How about you learn what an "accessory" is.
"An accessory is a person who assists in the commission of a crime, but who does not actually participate in the commission of the crime as a joint principal."
Nor can he even be accused of being an accessory after the fact, as he did report the incident to the proper authorities, namely, his superiors at Penn State, precisely as he was obligated to do.
whitewashes of Ruby Ridge and Waco
Also Pine Ridge (Leonard Peltier).
The Death Penalty for 4 years simply isn't enough. I said months ago that if it came to light that they knew and they actively covered it up... it would be the worst scandal in the history of athletics.
Penn State should do the right thing and axe its football program permanently.
If Penn State refuses to do so... the NCAA should ban the university from football competition for 100 years.
I will say this as well...
At least we SEC fans have heard much less preaching from our big 10 whipping boys about cheating and academics.
Penn State probably won't get the death penalty, for one simple reason. Money. They make the Big 10 and NCAA way to much money to be forced out.
This scandal, and others, is one of the reasons I no longer enjoy college football as much as I used to. To many, it is the supreme idol and must be protected at all costs. To this day, I have people at work defending Paterno and Penn State because they are fans.
Kind like the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. The first reaction is to attack the victums, even when there is proof of wrong doing.
"But was it indicative of an evil or malevolent intent? "
Clearly it did. These men created the environment where Sandusky could hunt, and bear responsibility in all of the later victims. They didn't just not stop him... they knew what he was doing and prevented others from stopping him to.
That is evil.
Paterno may as well have looked one of those kids in the eye and said, "I know it hurts son... but we have a reputation around here and this just can't come out. Here... bite this pillow... I'll be in my office."
And just wait. This ain't over. Don't be surprised if Matt Millon doesn't end up being a huge part of this as well.
That is evil.
Evil consequence, not evil intent. It is vital to distinguish between the two, because it is so very easy for those tempted to similar moral failings by telling themselves, correctly, that their intentions are not evil. If we make Paterno a monster equal to Sandusky, we will tend to permit future Paternos to excuse their moral failings... because they know they are not monsters.
"An accessory is a person who assists in the commission of a crime, but who does not actually participate in the commission of the crime as a joint principal."
If that's the definition of accessory then it appears to fit Joe Paterno pretty. He knew of the crime and used his influence to make sure it continued uninterrupted.
There were reportedly investigations into whether the Second Mile Foundation was pimping out boys to wealthy donors. Has anyone heard whether these were just rumors or if such investigations are ongoing? It just seems too convenient to bury this entire story with Joe Paterno.
I don't think anyone is equating what Paterno did with Sandusky's actions. The point is that Saint JoePa was also evil, just not as evil as Sandusky. Paterno's "a child rape lasts ten minutes, a Big Ten title flies forever" attitude was completely unacceptable and also evil. Saying "well yeah, but he wasn't as bad as Sandusky" is irrelevant.
"Evil consequence, not evil intent."
I disagree. It is indeed evil intent. He intentionally protected Sandusky and took no steps to stop further abuse... thus intentionally creating an environment safe for Sandusky to prey.
The conscience decision to intentionally sacrifice more kids was made.
"There were reportedly investigations into whether the Second Mile Foundation was pimping out boys to wealthy donors. "
That's why I brought up Matt Millen. There is reason to suspect the people of Detroit were not his first rape victims.
VD--
> "An accessory is a person who assists in the commission of a crime, but who does not actually
> participate in the commission of the crime as a joint principal."
Paterno reported the crime, and then did everything in his power to make sure it stopped there, leaving Sandusky available to again target children and young adults. Each crime after that initial report was done so with the assistance of all those who knew and did not definitively stop Sandusky.
Clearly Paterno can't be held liable for not single handedly stopping Sandusky excepting that he could have immediately fired him, and had him banned from campus. And he did not.
Finally, you are bending over backwards to presume that Paterno was a good person with no ill intent. For all you know he approved of Sandusky's action. It is every bit as likely as your assumptions that he did not approve of his actions. In fact, it is substantially more likely since Paterno did the absolute minimum and did not use the authority he had to stop his underling.
> If that's the definition of accessory then it appears to fit Joe Paterno pretty. He knew of the crime
> and used his influence to make sure it continued uninterrupted.
Exactly. VD is no consistent on this one. It's as if I was an accessory to a bank robbery. Am I off the hook if I run up the guard, tell him 'hey, we're robbing your bank, call the police!', and the immediately hog tie him and put him the vault.
And it turns out that joepa was not the lovable old father figure we thought he was...
There is no reason penn state should have a football team for at least a decade. In fact, their death penalty sentence should be equal tothe length of the child rape coverup.
"Whoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact."
That fits Paterno perfectly.
"Paterno reported the crime, and then did everything in his power to make sure it stopped there, leaving Sandusky available to again target children and young adults. Each crime after that initial report was done so with the assistance of all those who knew and did not definitively stop Sandusky."
He did not report the crime to authorities. He reported it to a group of subordinates who then worked with him to cover the whole thing up.
And yes. The President of the University was his subordinant. The Governor may have been as well.
But was it indicative of an evil or malevolent intent? I don't believe so, and to conflate the moral failings of a Paterno with the overt and predatory evil of a Sandusky is a fundamental mistake. It is important to remember that this is not simply a Joe Paterno scandal, but rather a Penn State scandal
It is absolutely true that their crimes are different. Paterno's crimes merit his statues coming down and him remembered forever as the coach that let the pederast do his thing with Penn State kids. It is also true that others could have done their duty and ignored Paterno and properly investigated the pederast. They did not. Paterno as a man failed. Penn state as an institution failed.
I therefore sentence Penn state to the death penalty. Raze the buildings and salt the earth where it once stood. I would also persue criminal charges against Paterno if possible. I would turn my back to him regardless and let his I actions and failings in this critical period of time define the man forever.
I would not remove Paterno's name from the various buildings he funded and tear down his statue
I would, else one is shown that even if such wrongs are committed one retains the lauded works the wrong helped to create.
"And it turns out that joepa was not the lovable old father figure we thought he was..."
Speak for yourself... I always thought he was a loathsome narcissistic ego maniac that put his selfish record chasing dream above the program.
Seeing Penn State go down is almost as satisfying as it will be when Duke falls.
" I would also persue criminal charges against Paterno if possible."
Tough to bring a dead man to trial mate.
Upon reflection, keep Paterno's name and statue and rename Penn State Pederast State. The football team can play on Sandusky Field. That would work too.
If that's the definition of accessory then it appears to fit Joe Paterno pretty.
What part of "a person who assists in the commission of a crime" do you not understand? How can you assist in the commission of a crime about which you are informed after the fact?
Am I off the hook if I run up the guard, tell him 'hey, we're robbing your bank, call the police!', and the immediately hog tie him and put him the vault.
First, you have your sequence incorrect. Second, telling your SUPERIOR that you don't think he needs to call the police is hardly the equivalent of hog-tying him and putting him in the vault. It's more like saying "someone robbed the bank, but they didn't take much out of the vault, so what good will it do to call the police, they won't do anything anyhow."
Even if you're wrong about how much was taken out of the vault, it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't make one an accessory to the theft.
Title 18 U.S.C. § 4. Misprision of felony. Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
"What part of "a person who assists in the commission of a crime" do you not understand? How can you assist in the commission of a crime about which you are informed after the fact?"
It wasn't after the fact. Child rape continued during the period of the cover up. Its not like Sandusky raped kids for 10 years... then JoPa stopped it... and covered it up.
He just covered it up and let it continue. Thus he was aware, and provided aid, during the commission of further crimes.
"Second, telling your SUPERIOR that you don't think he needs to call the police is hardly the equivalent of hog-tying him and putting him in the vault. It's more like saying "someone robbed the bank, but they didn't take much out of the vault, so what good will it do to call the police, they won't do anything anyhow." "
Calling that president JoPa's superior wreaks of ignorance. Who can fire who? The trustees would fire the president before they would let him fire JoPa.
Thus... JoPa was the boss.
The bickering over what crime, if any, Paterno committed misses the point. He made a concious decision to excuse evil, cover up any investigation into it and created an environment where the pedarist's actions could continue. That is unambiguous evil and should tarnish his memory accordingly. Whether or not there were crimes doesn't matter as Paterno is dead and highly unlikely to be charged, must less prosecuted, in the matter.
JoePa was untouchable at pedo state...in 2001, the university president asked him to reign, to retire, after a 5-6 season...JoePa said no, and was not forced to leave...so there were effectively no people superior to him at the school.
JoePa was untouchable at pedo state...in 2001, the university president asked him to reign, to retire, after a 5-6 season...JoePa said no, and was not forced to leave...so there were effectively no people superior to him at the school.
Ridiculous. The university president had the power to fire him and didn't. There is no debate about this because Paterno WAS eventually fired, so obviously he had superiors fully capable of doing what they did to him.
All of the constant focus on Paterno completely misses the point. He was the football coach. He was not the university president. He was not the chief of campus police. And there is no chance he would have been charged with any crime if he was alive. None. This doesn't excuse his moral failings, but I'm a little tired of all the little moral preeners attempting to pretend they are more outraged than each other.
The vast majority of people are not only not whistleblowers, but have NEVER even dared to do what Paterno did in reporting wrongdoing to the appropriate authority. I will bet the majority of policemen in the country are guilty of the same moral failing that Paterno is. This doesn't excuse it. I support the death penalty to Penn State football, which is more than many of the moral preeners will stomach.
But to claim the man is the equivalent of a child rapist is simply false.
Paterno's crimes merit his statues coming down and him remembered forever as the coach that let the pederast do his thing with Penn State kids.
That's the problem. If you take the statue down and erase him from the history books, nothing will be remembered at all. I think it would be much more effective to keep the statue and add a second statue, that of a young boy, pointing in accusation at Paterno's statue. Recognize the accomplishments and the failings alike. History that is whitewashed teaches nothing to anyone.
"Ridiculous. The university president had the power to fire him and didn't. There is no debate about this because Paterno WAS eventually fired, so obviously he had superiors fully capable of doing what they did to him."
And here we are reminded that Vox grew up in Minnesota... and thus has no idea how football colleges actually work.
Seriously Vox... this is like saying that the BLS reports are always correct...because they are produced by a bunch of people called the BLS.
"But to claim the man is the equivalent of a child rapist is simply false."
I don't know of anyone besides anonymous that is actually claiming JoPa screwed any little boys.
But we have shown that by your own definition, he was an accomplice.
Oh.. and by the by... the "president" JoPa reported to... was Grant Spanier...
Who had been hired by Penn State after leaving Nebraska... where there was a scandal involving a charity for boys and buggery. He was also an active advocate for homosexuality at Nebraska.. going so far as to advocate it.
I suppose all of this is coincidence.
Right?
Grant... Graham... whatever.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2810206/posts
There is the link. Franklin scandal. Enjoy.
I would, else one is shown that even if such wrongs are committed one retains the lauded works the wrong helped to create.
Good works don't cancel out evil works. Evil works don't cancel out good works. Whitewashing history serves the purpose poorly. Let the whole truth be known.
It wasn't after the fact. Child rape continued during the period of the cover up. Its not like Sandusky raped kids for 10 years... then JoPa stopped it... and covered it up.
Of course it was. Paterno had knowledge of one incident which he reported. The fact that you know someone is a thief doesn't mean you know that thief stole X on certain date Y from victim Z. You guys are like prosecutors who try to charge a man guilty of manslaughter for murder one, then are shocked when the killer walks free.
He wasn't an accomplice. He wasn't an accessory. It is very unlikely that he was guilty of any crime. He was guilty of a severe moral failing and should be held accountable for that, which the death penalty for Penn State football is the appropriate punishment. There are others at Penn State who did commit crimes and should pay for them.
And no, Nate, I don't think Spanier was a coincidence. And I'm confident that Paterno didn't hire him. The focus on Paterno misses the institutional rot, in fact, it may even be serving as a coverup for more serious issues. There may have been some funny business with the prosecutor of the earlier incident, if I recall correctly.
If the Penn State football program should be axed, shouldn't the New Orleans Saints be forced to become inoperative for at least one year?
"Some people have taken note of the fact that Gricar - divorced and dating - disappeared from the antique mall area of a town (Lewisburg?) known as home to a quiet, older, affluent gay community."
Oh no, the Bucknell connection!?! Only I don't remember the townies being older, affluent, or gay.
"If the Penn State football program should be axed, shouldn't the New Orleans Saints be forced to become inoperative for at least one year?"
You're comparing the saints to penn state?
That's dumb enough that Wheeler could've said it.
If the Penn State football program should be axed, shouldn't the New Orleans Saints be forced to become inoperative for at least one year?
Absolutely. I would love to see the NCAA do their utmost to enforce such a ban.
I have little faith in the NCAA to do the right thing. If they don't levy the death penalty for this, then they never will.
" I would also persue criminal charges against Paterno if possible."
Tough to bring a dead man to trial mate.
Doh!! Good point. In my haste and rage to see this come to an acceptable conclusion I forgot a key element. ;)
You point out a very strange duality in some that's bothered me since day one: Paterno was this betraying monster paragon of virtue who deserved to be shot and allowed to finish out the season. With the report - he's now a paragon who has fallen into monsterdom who should have finished out the season and then been shot.
My opinion hasn't changed, but that's because I made a leap (probably a risky one that, in this case, panned out) very early on that Paterno was allowed (and had the mindset) to participate in a "benevolent cover-up" because Spanier a) wanted the cover-up (as Nate said - Nebraska - exactly. That rabbit hole goes very, very deep.) and b) wanted a coward's leverage (either a trump card to play directly, or evidence to sway the board) to finally oust the coach.
I still don't know if my hunch is right, but one of its assumptions (that Paterno's hand was strong, not just in the self-denial but in the cover-up) has borne out.
I was disappointed because I liked Paterno, but not surprised that a sinner would sin.
Yeah, death penalty, but the Big 10 should deliver it first (I don't believe they have one in the by-laws, but I do believe they have a "whatever punishment deemed appropriate" clause, for the sake of the conference. I doubt that will happen. They are too busy trying to distance themselves (unsuccessfully) from their stumbling member and fully engaged in "monitoring" whatever the NCAA does.
If that's the definition of accessory then it appears to fit Joe Paterno pretty.
What part of "a person who assists in the commission of a crime" do you not understand? How can you assist in the commission of a crime about which you are informed after the fact?
BS, Vox. What part of 39 counts do you not understand? Paterno wasn't informed after the fact. He was informed after, during, and before. A man who rapes a boy and then spends much of his free time seeking out opportunities to be alone with more boys is almost certainly committing criminal acts on an ongoing basis. Are you saying that Paterno had no idea that Sandusky continued to spend so much time with boys?
I think it would be much more effective to keep the statue and add a second statue, that of a young boy, pointing in accusation at Paterno's statue. Recognize the accomplishments and the failings alike. History that is whitewashed teaches nothing to anyone
While the thought of a replica of a large cherub statue peeing on the Joepa statue is somewhat funny and would be a great photoshop and subsequent Internet meme, it is no way to treat this seriously.
I think the scandal goes much deeper than just Sandusky. The Second Mile charity was closed down immediately. Those people were likely involved in a huge pedophile ring exactly like the Franklin Scandal exposed. These people are NOT human. They are human predators. They destroy and kill our children. They are evil satanists and most who attempt to expose them get killed. Every once in a while one will leak through (like Sandusky) and they use him as a "see, we're looking after the children" routine while going on with their evil business abusing and killing children elsewhere. THIS is what is wrong with our world today--evil people are "ruling" it.
Just to supplement Nate's relevant tangent on Spanier: Spanier's PhD. thesis was on the coming normalization of sexual deviance, and how deviance has no impact on the family. He welcomed advocates of NAMBLA to speak on campus. He rubber stamped student fees being used for sex fairs.
From his thesis: "We choose to view deviant behavior simply as behavior that some value and others consider wrong. An individual's behavior becomes deviant only when others define it as deviant. Much of an individual's behavior can be viewed as a response to this 'labeling.' Mate swapping, then, can be viewed as either deviant or normal behavior, depending on who is viewing it and from what perspective it is being viewed."
So, from Spanier's perspective, Sandusky's behavior only became deviant in retrospect, once important people viewed it from the perspective that it was deviant.
This explains a lot of why he did what he did in his smallish (I think) role to bury (and extend) the real story about the Franklin conspiracy. I think it is very strange that Herman Cain, who was instrumental in laundering the $40 million missing from the Franklin child ring back in the early 1990s through his purchase of Godfather's, featured most prominently in the media in conjunction with the breaking Sandusky scandal. What a weird coincidence.
Comparing the Saints bounty scandal (which is a BS temptest in a tea-kettle)is totally ridiculous.
Who had been hired by Penn State after leaving Nebraska... where there was a scandal involving a charity for boys and buggery. He was also an active advocate for homosexuality at Nebraska.. going so far as to advocate it.
I wonder if he's... no couldn't be with a name like "Graham".
Oh, for crying out loud, and from South Africa too.
Partially adequate retribution for Paterno's failings IMO:
1) retroactive firing to the date he first covered up anything pedo-wise, with a legal judgement (so not dodgeable in bankruptcy) that his estate owes repayment (with interest) all compensation from that point.
2) Don't count in ANY record books "his" wins after that date.
3) Make continuation of foo-bah at Ped State at some point in the future contingent upon these.
4) Agreed completely with Vox that Ped State needs to lose foo-bah for a few years. Would add that everyone (down to janitors, secretaries, and maintenance guys) who were there in PedoCoverUP days need to be permanently and completly GONE from the athletic department (with zero campus visiting privileges) before resumption.
5) Isn't it about time that a college -- gasp! concentrate on teaching, to the exclusion of engaging in unrelated businesses such as integrated steel smelting and varsity sports? With the upcoming end of college student loans, few prospective students who could afford Ped State's level of tuition will be willing to pay for irrelevances such as a farm team for pro sports (let the NFL run their own, as MLB does). If someone in Pennsylvania wants to watch football, NFL games do appear on television from time to time...
Hi there, Nate/Wendy, you brilliant political philosopher, you!
I see you're slathered all over this thread about men of evil, men with power, and men of questionable evil. What I don't see is you over there on the other thread where you were so snide. Why aren't you helping your humble shallow supplicant, moi, to puzzle out: how do you know when men are evil? How do you know what power is? Basic questions like that, which you consider shallow and beneath you, and yet are somehow at the heart of this scandal.
You're the genius philosopher, not me, remember; and you're certainly tall enough for the ride, by your own estimate.
Come on, Sensei Wendy. I'm asking you a few simple questions.
Help me out here.
Sorry, my grammar is out of whack.
That should be Wendy-Sensei.
Sumimasen! (and it won't.)
How will banning Penn State from having a football team solve anything?
A man who rapes a boy and then spends much of his free time seeking out opportunities to be alone with more boys is almost certainly committing criminal acts on an ongoing basis.
True, but irrelevant. Knowing a man is a criminal does not mean knowing precisely when and where he has committed his crimes. Your case is logically sound and legally irrelevant.
I see you're slathered all over this thread about men of evil, men with power, and men of questionable evil. What I don't see is you over there on the other thread where you were so snide.
Don't cross-post, Scoobius.
jay cAre you saying that Paterno had no idea that Sandusky continued to spend so much time with boys?
That's not accessory. You don't understand what accessory is. I know a drug dealer. I've seen him hanging out with suspicious types. That doesn't make me accessory to crimes I don't even witness!
The only event that is known that Paterno even knew about (or was responsible for reporting) was the one that was witnessed in the team locker room. He did report it, and then he led (with university leadership's crucial blessing) some type of decision to whitewash it after the fact. I'm not sure if there is a minor criminal charge in that (and even so, by the hierarchy, it would still land on Spanier as the Nixon of the operation, even if Paterno was the volunteer bulldog), but to conflate him with accessory to assaulting more than fifty children is just silly.
Stop confusing his failing for Sandusky's crime. Yes they are both bad, and both obviously inspire rage and cries for justice, but they aren't the same (one for example, is a life-sentence sort of felony - the other didn't even warrant a charge while Paterno was alive - and if he were today, it isn't clear that it would even now - and they should be treated on their own terms.
These people are NOT human. They are human predators. They destroy and kill our children. They are evil satanists and most who attempt to expose them get killed.
Come on now. That's a bit over the top. Even St. John Chrysostom didn't go that far.
Scooby... I'm ignoring your infantile questions because they are in fact infantile.
I have a 5 year old to ask me "why? why? why?" and I patiently answer him.
I would offer you the same courtesy except you're likely to lazy to actually read and comprehend.
The words "evil" and "power" have definitions and are easily observable. Get off your lazy ass and figure it out on your own. You're employing a pathetic rhetorical tactic that... which is fine for tea time with the gossiping hens... but it gets you no traction here.
Run along Nancy.
scoobius dubious - please read the rules and stop cross posting.
How will banning Penn State from having a football team solve anything?
It will make future coverups much less likely. Since Paterno attempted to cover it up in order to protect the football program, he probably would not have if he had known that doing so risked killing it altogether.
The fact that Penn State fans are desperate to avoid this is a sign that such a penalty would be sufficient deterrent.
How will banning Penn State from having a football team solve anything?
It isn't a solution. It is a punishment.
By not punishing a school that allowed its football program to be important enough to inspire a cover-up of systematic child torture, the NCAA will develop an environment that is explicitly pro-deviance, pro-corruption and pro-cover up. Right now, it is only implied.
The NCAA, in other words, by doing nothing, will be outing itself. Up until know, it has had plausible deniability because there hasn't been a scandal this unsweepable before.
Being the contrarian that I am...
I believe the scandal happened, not because of desire to protect Penn State football, but just because of the type people involved.
Excluding the victims, most involved were: well educated, charismatic, very successful, wealthy, and narcissistic.
It has been my observation that these types live in a different world from the rest of us. When they commit crimes....there seems to be usually an underlying "cause". They go to counselling and rehab. (We go to prison for
similar actions.)
Comparing the Saints bounty scandal (which is a BS temptest in a tea-kettle)is totally ridiculous.
Gee, Nate, your knee jerked so hard it musta hit you in the head.
Although in relative terms it is like comparing DUI to Vehicular homicide, the subject at hand is collective punishment of a whole organization.
Look, joe pa was the most powerful man at pedo state, and the one that initiated the cover up...if he was alive today, he'd be on trial for perjury, if not obstruction of justice
The NCAA is going to make an example all right...they'll probably shut down the entire athletic department at some d3 school...
Nate,
The scandal in Nebraska not only involved Grahm, but the GOP as well. A lot of people involved ended up dead.
I know one of the victums. He has tried to move on with his life, and is married. He is worried someone will come for him one of these days to tie up a loose end.
IF, and that is a big IF, law enforcement and media follow this down the rabbit hole, there will be much worse found. I have little faith that will happen, since many of those involved are very powerful men.
Yeah... I seriously doubt anyone is going to investigate the link to the Franklin Scandal. To many bodies in that hole.
the subject at hand is collective punishment of a whole organization.
If you really want to compare the two, you should at least pay better lip service to the differences:
Saints - No criminal charges
PSU - Criminal charges with convictions on 45 charges.
Saints - Evidence - Someone got paid $50, breaking a league rule, and a recording of a coach suggesting that players hit other players while playing a game.
PSU - Evidence - Hundreds of episodes of rape and a cover up.
Saints - Most excessive punishments in league history implemented immediately upon announcement.
PSU - No team punishments aside from the firing of a coach, forcing him to coach one less game than his retirement would have allowed.
The subject at hand is not a generic "collective punishment of a whole organization." By that logic we should be talking about how the LA Sparks should have been suspended for allowing Rhonda Mapp to play while she was violating the WNBA's drug and "do not be a male athlete" policies.
" I would also persue criminal charges against Paterno if possible."
Tough to bring a dead man to trial mate.
I'll settle for a severe reprimand!
(Jack Vance reference: “I am severe, certainly, but I have never gone so far as to reprimand a corpse.” -- Bodwyn Wook in Ecce and Old Earth)
Continuing...
They probably thought that Sandusky had "some issues" and that it was punishment enough that he would never be HC at PSU. This gets into the "lack of empathy" part of the Freh report. To these people the victims were...mundanes.
I suspect there was a lot of denial going on and many involved were truly shocked to find out the details and depths of Sandusky's depravity. In their minds they made excuses for him because he was on of them. (Sure..he seems a little "different" when it comes to young boys....but in every other way he is one of us...)
Similar examples:
Roman Polanski
Teddy Kennedy
Most other Mass. Kennedys
Duh 'Merican is a fag tax payer subsidized joke at every level.
Banning a team, or the entire NFL matters not, it will go the way of the Gladiators, it will flail, and fail. It is a sickness of empire, and it's legacy will be ruins.
Yeah... don't get technical. Johnny is a very technical boy.
woops, please insert "football" after 'Merican, but it does work for me as is too ;)
Look, joe pa was the most powerful man at pedo state, and the one that initiated the cover up...if he was alive today, he'd be on trial for perjury, if not obstruction of justice
No, he was not. He was fired. Do you really have trouble understanding that someone who can be fired is not, by definition, the most powerful individual at the institution?
"I don't favor whitewashing history. If I were the responsible individual at Penn State, I would not remove Paterno's name from the various buildings he funded and tear down his statue, but rather seek to use him as an example to teach about the dangers that hubris poses to even the most upstanding and successful."
Laudable, except that the greatest whitewashing is done by time. 50 years from now no one will look at the Joe Pa statue and remember him as a pedophile covereruperer. They will see a great football coach immortalized in bronze.
Think of all the public schools and libraries named after the great eugenecists.
I say quietly and unceremoniously tear it all down. Run his family out of town too. That's the message that needs to be sent.
What's unfortunate is that while everyone is desperate to tear Paterno apart, it will probably allow Gov. Corbett (who was AG at the time), the other prosecutors, and the admin and other people who are up to their necks in this to wiggle free when the public finishes burning Paterno at the stake and gets bored and distracted by some shiny thing.
RedJack, sadly, law enforcement and media are in on the scandal. The best hope for something to be done got taken out in that plane crash. Even this Freeh report seems (have not yet read it, so my bias against Freeh is waving like a flag) to be packaged to cut off the obvious limbs without striking at the root of the network.
Keep in mind that Spanier's old "human sex studies" department was instrumental in cutting off the academic channels to investigate the Franklin thing (well before Sandusky came to light) while also "normalizing" the idea of child slavery.
If your friend cares, let him know he's got a prayer from a stranger who, based on the obvious evidence, believes him and hopes a normal life is exactly what he gets going forward. I know another victim tangentally, and was a little younger than Johnny Gosch and about the same age as Eugene Martin when they vanished in nearby Des Moines. I can't imagine the shadow that must cast over your friend.
Do you really have trouble understanding that someone who can be fired is not, by definition, the most powerful individual at the institution?
So a CEO who gets fired was not the most powerful man in the firm and bears no responsibility for what the firm does?
Jerry
Think of all the public schools and libraries named after the great eugenecists.
...who are still lionized for their contribution to eugenics (it's just called something different and more palatable today: freedom, rights, abortion) and committed no crime. Their statues aren't up in spite of their stance, but because of it.
Paterno's statue should stay up. After all, Douglas MacArthur is still remembered 60 years after the fact for both his feats and his scandal. People aren't binary.
Nobody will have a sick, falling feeling when they see a patch on a sidewalk. Some will when they see the heroic bespectacled one in bronze, standing for truth, justice and a good old fashioned child torture cover up.
Don't whitewash the stain, I say.
"No, he was not. He was fired. Do you really have trouble understanding that someone who can be fired is not, by definition, the most powerful individual at the institution?"
2011 is not the same as 2002. Savvy?
They were able to fire him in 2011 only AFTER the scandal broke which reduced his power.
They were NOT able to fire him in 2002... which proved that he WAS the most powerful man there.
...p.s. and punishing his family is ridiculous.
By the way Vox...
Spanier testified that he was never made aware of the 1998 incident. So doesn't that mean JoPa did NOT report that to his boss?
There is a well-established doctrine in criminal law known as "accessory after the fact." Here's one definition: "Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact." If Paterno were alive, he would be subject to criminal prosecution.
2011 is not the same as 2002. Savvy?
No, Nate. It is. The fact that Spanier didn't have the power to get rid of Paterno in '02 doesn't mean that the board couldn't have. They simply didn't, likely because Spanier didn't inform them of the scandal because he didn't want to acknowledge his weakness.
In other words, Spanier could have had Paterno out for trying to lead a cover-up in '02, but chose not to.
The fact that Paterno had more power than Spanier and Spanier opted not to include the board in bringing everything to bear to be rid of Paterno, does not make Paterno the most powerful man at the organization.
He was provably firable. He was provably touchable. The fact that they didn't touch him in '02 isn't an indication of his power, but of the hubris of the organization that had the power to depose him but did not. Savvy?
No, he was not. He was fired. Do you really have trouble understanding that someone who can be fired is not, by definition, the most powerful individual at the institution?
He was only fired after the scandal bribe out...it's very safe to say that being implicating in covering up a child rape tends to reduce ones power in an organization...
Or, look at it this way...even though dwight howard wasn't the gm of the magic, he was still able to get the coach fired, even though the coach outranks him on the org chart...
Logos
There is a well-established doctrine in criminal law known as "accessory after the fact." Here's one definition: "Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact." If Paterno were alive, he would be subject to criminal prosecution.
Except he reported it. Then, with the collusion of the head of campus safety (the police with jurisdiction on campus) he participated (possibly de facto leading it) in a cover-up. It isn't cut and dried "accessory after the fact" as he did technically report the shower incident to the police, and in any case, is not the same thing as "accessory before the fact" which is what the shorthand "accessory" above refers to.
I think "accessory after the fact" might have been a possible charge, were he still alive, but I do think it (unfortunately) falls just inside the gray area because he did technically report a crime and then conspired with Curley (police) and others to bury it after the fact.
Or look at it another way...
If Nick Saban demanded that the president of the University of Alabama be fired...
who would go? The president? or saban?
If you think Saban would be fired... Then you're just ignorant about big time college sports.
The Board could have voted Paterno out in '02 or whenever they had that bad stretch of losing seasons. He was not the most powerful person at the organization back then, or even after the national titles. He was a contract employee who answered to the board.
He was their most powerful symbol, and certainly quite influential, but always, by contract, disposable. The board, on the other hand, as a body, can not be disposed.
It's simple organizational structure. Paterno was not the most powerful member of the organization ever.
"In other words, Spanier could have had Paterno out for trying to lead a cover-up in '02, but chose not to."
No. he couldn't. He in fact, tried. He asked JoPa to step down and JoPa refused.
It may be because JoPa knew about the cover-up and therefore could not be fired without opening the whole can of worms... but still... he obviously could not be fired.
He was only fired when the scandal was already out in the open...and even then only 1 game before he was set to retire.
The trustees are getting a pass here for no reason as well.
It is not my intention to put all of this on JoPa. I am just calling him evil. I am not saying he is solely responsible for the cover up.
Nate
If Nick Saban demanded that the president of the University of Alabama be fired...
who would go? The president? or saban?
Wrong question. If Saban demand that the board of Directors be removed... who would go?
@ Daniel
If you really want to compare the two, you should at least pay better lip service to the differences:
I reject your self-serving characterizations.
The Saints were collectively punished.
PSU was not. Brilliant observation.
The question was put as to whether they should be and how sever, hence the comparison with the Saints.
Seems like everyone is on the rag the last couple of days.
No. he couldn't. He in fact, tried. He asked JoPa to step down and JoPa refused.
Spanier is not the board. I never said Spanier was more powerful (on his own) than Paterno. That does not make Paterno the most powerful member of the organization.
"Wrong question. If Saban demand that the board of Directors be removed... who would go?"
The Board of Directors. I say this as one currently living in Alabama.
Trust me on this.
2011 is not the same as 2002. Savvy?
Joe Paterno's position was the same. Irrelevant.
They were NOT able to fire him in 2002... which proved that he WAS the most powerful man there.
That's untrue. They were unable to convince him to resign... and they decided not to fire him. You are confusing their unwillingness to use their superior power with its nonexistence.
Spanier testified that he was never made aware of the 1998 incident. So doesn't that mean JoPa did NOT report that to his boss?
No, because Paterno did not report to Spanier. He reported to Curley, the athletic director. Also, if I understand correctly, the report contradicts Spanier's claim.
No need to ban. Let's just say that they can only play as long as they prominently feature a certain, cuddly bear in their flag.
Their [eugenecists] statues aren't up in spite of their stance, but because of it.
Wrongo. No one erected a statue to Oliver Wendell Holmes or David Starr Jordan or Winston Churchill or Alexander Graham Bell because of their stance on eugenics. I doubt that many today are even aware that they were eugenecists.
That's because they have statues erected to them because of their other accomplishments.
But imagine if the statues were unceremoniously torn down. Perhaps a bare pedestal is allowed to remain.
"Daddy, what happened to the statue?"
"Well son, that was a statue of Oliver Wendell Holmes, the great Supreme Court Justice. We tore his f&*%$ing statue down and ran his f%$#^% family out of town when he crapped on the constitution and forced American citizens to be sterilized against their will."
"Wow. What a dick."
"Yup."
I'd never before seen what Spanier looked like. Holy gayface, Batman! He looks like more of a pedophile than Sandusky.
zen0, me saying the Saints are obviously irrelevant to the topic because no crime was committed is not self-serving. I hate the Saints.
But to appease your desperate plea to compare unlike things, I'll answer the silly question and then some:
The Saints shouldn't be punished for doing football things like chatting up bounties (which our coaches did in high school). Hollywood shouldn't be punished for forcing Lindsay Lohan to have plastic surgery done by a gravedigger with a flat shovel. Arkansas shouldn't be punished for its citizens openly refusing dentistry.
None of this has anything to do with an institution's cover-up of multiple felonies.
You ought to know better than to challenge me at this time of the month.
Your case is logically sound and legally irrelevant.
I've known a few lawyers. That's almost a compliment.
I'd never before seen what Spanier looked like. Holy gayface, Batman! He looks like more of a pedophile than Sandusky.
He's friends with Ryan Seacrest and plays washboard in a dixieland band.
I am not joking.
Sterilization of the unfit is a bad thing?
"You are confusing their unwillingness to use their superior power with its nonexistence."
I'm going to forgive this ignorance based on the fact that you grew up in Minnesota and therefore have no frame of reference to the amount of power an extremely successful coach can amass.
After all... Minnesota has never had an extremely successful coach... in anything.
Oh...and by the way...
The retired justice that oversaw Penn State legal affairs stepped down and hired an attourney...
Plus there were shenanigans with the prosecutor the first time around as Vox mentioned.
So clearly this is going to go the way of the Franklin Scandal.
Re "punishing" Sandusky's and/or Joe Paterno's families:
1) Sandusky's wife sounds as if she at least knew about, and probably facilitated, what her husband perpetrated. If the appropriate court tries her (and I hope it will), she should get bankrupted and jailed for a double-digit # of years, without the usual ~60% reduction in sentence from being a broad.
2) Any compensations Sand. or Pat. received as athletic leaders subsequent to their moral failures as proven actions were arguably received fraudulently. Thus, for the families to retain them is arguably to possess stolen goods. They should be falling all over themselves to return them -- and subject to ever-increasing legal penalties should they not do so.
3) Who punished the families, but their patriarchs who took voluntary actions certain in an ideal world to bring eternal shame on them, and all who share their name and blood? I didn't tell those execretions of men to void all over their lives and the lives of those close to them to satisfy sinful thrice-damned (even by the decadent standards of our own declining historical age) lusts or coverups of same to maintain power, fame, and the flow of money. It was their own bad idea, and they rightly bear all the blame for it.
Oh, and he's also a magician. Which, while serving as a convenient metaphor for his life of dodging condemnation for his overt social engineering, is also directly relevant to his relationship with and to Sandusky.
Wowzers Vox...
"All men are fallen" does not even begin to excuse away the man's actions, or lack of action.
"I would not remove Paterno's name from the various buildings he funded and tear down his statue, but rather seek to use him as an example to teach about the dangers that hubris poses to even the most upstanding and successful."
Removing his name and tearing down his statue is exactly the way to use him as an example. That's what happened to Saddam.
"Evil consequence, not evil intent.
There's a difference in God's eyes? The destruction of Sodum and Gremorrah says no.
So clearly this is going to go the way of the Franklin Scandal.
My only hope is that the ever shifting public face of the ring doesn't float back to my neck of the woods. It's frustrating being incapable of fighting those demons head on, but it is worse to have it right in your face on a daily basis. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back to Atlanta again, now that Cain is back home there and the powers that be have conclusively locked down Wayne Williams on the basis of vague dog hair.
here may have been some funny business with the prosecutor of the earlier incident, if I recall correctly.
From what SI reported back in November, files in the case went missing, along with the prosecutor who was found later on in a lake.
He was only fired after the scandal bribe out...it's very safe to say that being implicating in covering up a child rape tends to reduce ones power in an organization...
He wasn't even fired. He was suspended with pay,kept his tenured professor post and the university later admitted he would be allowed to retire at the end of the season.
By not firing him with cause he got paid another 5.5 million salary and 3 million dollar bonus. His widow will receive a 13.4 million dollar pension. The whole "firing" press conference was a dog and pony show.
That's pretty powerful. It's also pretty disgusting.
Joe Pateno has died and gone to his reward. He was judged by a more competent judge than we will ever be. I am content to leave Paterno's reward in God's hands.
The cynic in me is commenting on how conveniently the scandal is blamed on a dead man. It looks to me that Mr Freeh is conducting a coverup in plain sight. His report has sent the yapping dogs in pursuit of dead man and let the living go scott free.
Passinthrough... its crossed my mind more than once that JoPa offed himself.
and its also possible someone offed him.
Passinthrough
The cynic in me is commenting on how conveniently the scandal is blamed on a dead man.
Binga-linga-dingo. Funny how so many public key players in these rings (whether whistleblowers or blameworthy) are the ones under headstones.
You have monarch programming, you have the front-line criminal, you have a few fall guys, you have the public face (dead) and you have the upper level rats scattering into the shadows long before the lights came on. Someone's been stealing pages from MK-ULTRA again.
Savages.
Passinthrough... its crossed my mind more than once that JoPa offed himself.
and its also possible someone offed him.
It's likely just a convenient coincidence, but if years from now it turns out that this investigation hid a much large ring of perverts to protect the living powerful, then his timely death will be very suspect.
Speaking of offing people, what's your opinion on a .38 for a super small C&C?
By not firing him with cause he got paid another 5.5 million salary and 3 million dollar bonus. His widow will receive a 13.4 million dollar pension
Which is fine, in a way, for the victims. I mean the pension was untouchable. The university had to pay that out. As for the other money, the victims can go after his estate ,which now how has deep pockets,
in separate cases, and maybe get more compensation.
After all... Minnesota has never had an extremely successful coach... in anything.
Really? Bernie Bierman's five national college football championships and seven Big 10 championships argue otherwise.
Removing his name and tearing down his statue is exactly the way to use him as an example. That's what happened to Saddam.
No wonder no one ever learns from history. Do you not understand that wiping Paterno's name from the record is simply historical whitewashing?
The cynic in me is commenting on how conveniently the scandal is blamed on a dead man.
This is part of my objection to the focus on Paterno.
"Speaking of offing people, what's your opinion on a .38 for a super small C&C?"
I don't see the point of getting a .38... As always... I recommend a .357. You can shoot .38s out of it if you have to.
I have a .357 snubby with crimson trace grips as my backup backup usually worn on my ankle.
Bob: "Removing his name and tearing down his statue is exactly the way to use him as an example."
Exactly. It's not "whitewashing history", it's adding another chapter to it.
I'm not advocating erasing the record books. Just tearing down the idols.
And running the scumbag's family out of town if they lack the decency to do it on their own.
"Really? Bernie Bierman's five national college football championships and seven Big 10 championships argue otherwise."
Who?
Do you know how many teams claim the national championship in 1940? Like 5. including Tennessee by the way.
And... I would like to point out that the fact that you bring up a coach that literally almost know one knows about proves my point. Minnesota hasn't been relevant in football in over 50 years.
Probably the most effective way to memorialize Paterno would be the "Cromwell treatment".
Exhume the body, hang it in chains, remove the head, stick it on a spike for all to see.
Hey they're still erecting statues to Cromwell to this day. But no one will ever forget the head on a stick.
"Removing his name and tearing down his statue is exactly the way to use him as an example. That's what happened to Saddam.
No wonder no one ever learns from history. Do you not understand that wiping Paterno's name from the record is simply historical whitewashing?"
I'm not suggesting we wipe his name from the records. His name and conduct should be kept alive to remind us all that unconditional support for anything can have severe consequences, unintentional or otherwise.
I'm suggesting the statue and the names be removed. Honors and recognition like that are for true role models.
Leaving up his statue and his name on buildings?
Now that's whitewashing!
Bob, then take down the Lincoln Memorial first.
Even actual "true role models" like Washington has reasons to take down his statues. What sort of war general positions his fort at the bottom of a valley?
He was only fired after the scandal bribe out...it's very safe to say that being implicating in covering up a child rape tends to reduce ones power in an organization...
Wait - at the time of his firing in November, was he implicated in a cover up? I didn't think so. Given that the Freeh report just came out, and that the first email showing any potential link to a cover-up was only leaked a couple weeks ago, and Freeh and his group had gone through 3.5 million emails to find that one, it doesn't seem likely that the Trustees had evidence that took Freeh 8 months to find.
I'm just asking here. Has there been any report that the Trustees who fired Paterno knew the whole story? I thought it was purely, at the time, that he was fired for a lack of leadership for reporting it and then inaction after that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Permanently kill the football program. To not punish the current players, let them keep their scholarships so they can graduate, or allow them to transfer with no waiting penalty.
Keep the statue and stadium as a permanent reminder to Happy Valley to what happened.
Who?
Do you know how many teams claim the national championship in 1940? Like 5. including Tennessee by the way.
And... I would like to point out that the fact that you bring up a coach that literally almost know one knows about proves my point. Minnesota hasn't been relevant in football in over 50 years.
Tweet! Goal post move, awaiting penalty.....
Daniel: "Even actual "true role models" like Washington has reasons to take down his statues. What sort of war general positions his fort at the bottom of a valley?"
Then go take it down, dipshit.
Then we can run YOUR pussificated ass out of town. Your family too.
See how this works? It's not about debating some civil code about the 'appropriateness of a public display which balances the historic importance with contemporary values...etc...etc.."
IT'S ABOUT TAKING A F%$%^%$ BLOWTORCH TO THE STATUE AND RUNNING HIS FAMILY OUT OF TOWN.
God I'm sick of the pansies that frequent this joint.
I'm just asking here. Has there been any report that the Trustees who fired Paterno knew the whole story? I thought it was purely, at the time, that he was fired for a lack of leadership for reporting it and then inaction after that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
As far as I understand it, no. The report suggests that all official channel information stopped at Spanier who was perfectly capable of blowing a whistle. Or squeezing his horn, or whatever it is that he does with that honking thing coming out of his zipper.
Who knows if Spanier chatted with a board member or two, but right now, the last taggable offender is him. After that, you've got to leave legal investigation behind and try to construct things out of vapor. I wouldn't be surprised to know that he never discussed it even informally with a board member: after all, they brought him in from Nebraska to pervert things on his own terms.
@Daniel
Yes, he reported it. My point was that Paterno could not be absolved from criminal liability simply because he did not participate in the crimes as they were being committed, which was Vox's original contention. As for the reporting, Paterno still went out of his way to minimize the fallout and protect Sandusky, which meets the test.
@Logos
Vox's original contention was that to conflate Paterno's crime and Sandusky's is a fundamental error, and one that was formerly and is presently being made among many.
But here's my legal question for you - if Paterno reported the crime, and then later particpated with the police(Curley) in a conspiracy to cover it up post-report, does that make him accessory after the fact to Sandusky's crime, or is it a separate crime?
Even if it does, wouldn't he still technically be a bit player? Shouldn't it be the police who had the report who should be making headlines?
"Tweet! Goal post move, awaiting penalty....."
Quite right. It was an exajuration to say Minnesota had NEVER had a great coach.
They just haven't had one in the last 50 years. Which still supports my point... that Vox does not have the experience of observing the power they can accumulate.
JoePa was untouchable at pedo state...in 2001, the university president asked him to reign, to retire, after a 5-6 season...JoePa said no, and was not forced to leave...so there were effectively no people superior to him at the school.
This incident does nothing to show Paterno had no superiors at Penn State. To set the story straight, it was after the 2004 season, when Penn State had had an unprecedented 4 out of 5 losing seasons (2000, 2001, 2003, 2004). Previously, Paterno had only had one. There was growing discontent amongst the fan base and even staunch Paterno supporters thought the game had passed him by. Spanier and Curley went to his house to talk about him retiring. He told them they didn't know what the hell they were talking about (Paterno's words) and that they had turned the corner. He turned out to be right, going 11-1, with only a last second loss to Michigan, and an Orange Bowl victory in 2005. There hasn't been a losing season since and even an almost-trip to the BCS Championship game in 2008 but for a late season last-play-of-the-game loss to Iowa.
Nothing sinister there. It was all about football and the state of the football program. Whatever else we may say about him, it turns out Joe knew football and he knew his program... more than President Gay-raham Spanier for sure, and apparently convinced him as much. I'm not saying he never thumbed his nose at authority, just that this was not one of those times.
Paterno and Penn State had a good run but, much like the British Navy, they eventually discovered that "rum, sodomy, and the lash" can only take you so far.
But here's my legal question for you - if Paterno reported the crime, and then later particpated with the police(Curley) in a conspiracy to cover it up post-report,
I'm not going to answer the legal question, but this is what the report shows Paterno to have done. This really shows just how cynical and savvy he was.
He was engaging in a conscious effort of talmudic hairsplitting, where he believed he was reporting enough to avoid legal penalty for himself for failure to report, but not enough where anyone would else would be compelled to report outside the Penn State family.
Really more despicable than not saying anything at all. Out to cover his own ass while knowingly hanging the kids out to dry.
Your answer is exactly correct, J.J.
By the way, Nebraska coach Tom Osborne came out with a statement on Paterno who he knew well and Tim Curley with whom he was familiar, but nothing on Spanier who was his Chancellor for four years and is close friends with the current Chancellor (Perlman).
That's an important omission. Most of the major threads [Franklin, shady disappearances, pedo-traits, normalization of deviance, Second Mile, abuse (Spanier's nose is broken - attributed to severe abuse by his father)] run straight through Spanier. He's not at the top of the chain, obviously, but he is the key link.
The business over Paterno's statue and legacy is the first level of "blown cover as cover" narrative.
Level up if you want to get closer to what's going on. Right now, I'm stuck between floors.
...with the current Chancellor (Perlman)
Always good to have a Perlman in charge.
Perlman: Ron Brown's LGBT comments don't represent NU
University of Nebraska-Lincoln Chancellor Harvey Perlman took assistant Husker football coach Ron Brown to task Thursday for not making it clear he was not speaking for the university when he testified on an Omaha proposal to add new legal protections for gay or transgender residents.
Perlman wrote in a letter to The World-Herald's Public Pulse: "Only the board can speak on university policy and practices. Recently Ron Brown, a Nebraska football coach, talked before the Omaha City Council in opposition to an ordinance that would ban discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
And on and on and on it goes. Mark my words, it may take 40 years, but man-boy love will be either legal or sanctions severely curtailed.
Probably while even keeping male on female statutory rape laws in place.
Anyone who thinks there's a limit to where the left says "here, but no further" is a fool. That's barring a collapse and violent reaction of course.
Victorian society was much better. There is not a single advantage in the open sexuality of today's culture. It simply allows evil an opportunity to work in the open, continuously pushing the envelope of decency, inuring the people to every depravity. Just as the taboo of homosexuality was removed from society, the same will happen with pedophilia. I am sure of it. This is just another example in the long list of sexual outrages so common in today's open society:
A college instructor at Western Nevada College is accused of requiring students to masturbate and publicly reveal personal sex-fantasies in order to pass a “human sexuality” class, according to a federal complaint filed in U.S. District Court last month.
The fact that a complaint was filed is no indication of a moral society, it is an indication of a failed one.
A college instructor at Western Nevada College is accused of requiring students to masturbate and publicly reveal personal sex-fantasies in order to pass a “human sexuality” class,
The most immoral aspect of this story is the existence of "Western Nevada College". Why isn't everyone involved in this clearly bogus organization being prosecuted for fraud?
Spanier and Curley went to his house to talk about him retiring. He told them they didn't know what the hell they were talking about (Paterno's words) and that they had turned the corner
Paterno turned down Million Dollar NFL Money in the 70's when coaching salaries weren't that high at the time. This endeared him to PSU officials who felt they owed him some sort of loyalty in return.
Above Top Secret has an interesting entry on the Franklin scandal.
"Anyone who thinks there's a limit to where the left says "here, but no further" is a fool."
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/03/12543099-california-bill-would-allow-children-to-have-more-than-two-parents?lite
"The focus on Paterno misses the institutional rot, in fact, it may even be serving as a coverup for more serious issues. "
Bingo. That's what I've been saying since I found out about this case.
Penn State is corrupt, and the NCAA is even more corrupt for allowing them to get away with it. College football is a rotten insitution where bastards let pedophiles rum amok just because they want to keep all the advertising money (that not even the athletes see).
THAT'S the problem.
Sorry, I disagree on Penn state. We don't need to "Send a message" that Child Rape is wrong. Paterno is dead, and the Gay Sandusky is in prison. BTW, let Gays into the Boy Scouts and you'll have Sandusky's all over the place.
There's no need to punish Penn state athletes or coaches for crimes they didn't commit.
Minnesota may not have a long history of college football greatness, but it is near the top for championing atheism through athletics, 'Saints' become 'Aints' to honor atheism
Yeah.
Anyone who can carry on a relationship with a child molester, especially an employee who's a child molester, is near the bottom of the barrel. The only thing lower is the actual child molester. How could he even talk to him without vomiting.
***
An an accomplice is a person who is present at the scene of the crime, actively participates in its commission, and has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties.
***
Will you at least try to learn what you are talking about before talking?
In the United States, in order to be charged with a crime and face the same penalties you DO NOT:
A.Have to be at the scene of the crime.
B.Have to participate in the crime in ANY WAY.
C.Have to even know it happened up until the point the police arrest you.
Who cares about guilt? This is about busting "the perp".
It's called conspiracy. And I am absolutely certain that if the conspiracy tree where shook hard enough Paterno could most definitely be charged with child rape.
Now, of course, this has nothing to do with actual guilt of course, but try to understand the laws of the United States a little before talking about them.
Was Paterno, hereafter referred to as Perp 2, at any time in the same room as Perp 1? Yes?
Well then he can be charged with conspiracy.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/joe-paterno-got-richer-contract-amid-jerry-sandusky-inquiry.xml
This article, among other things, would seem to provide further evidence to both th
e power the man had (and his family is using even after his death) and his less then honorable intentions. I disagree with your asessment.
The man, while likely being made a scapegoat so that others can blend quietly back into the night, knowingly aided and abided true evil. And had the audacity to use it as a bargaining chip. Why on earth you would defend him is beyond me.
Yeah, sorry, logically and legally (in the USA at least) this argument fails.
Shouldn't it be the police who had the report who should be making headlines? - Daniel
Exactly. Nothing like the old "hey, let's blame it all on the dead guy!" routine. It will fly with most people of course. The purpose of high profile investigations with high profile (criminal) people running it is to cover things up. They take advantage of the average persons blind faith and trust in Authority.
The District Attorney Gricar in '98 had the case in his lap.
He did nothing with it.
He also eventually wound up at the bottom of the River along with his wiped/damaged hard drive.
Many are mentioning Franklin.
Folks should check into TheFinders case as well, beginning in Tallahassee, FL.
According to the child transporters, the (abused) children were on their way to a "special school" in Mexico.
Isn't there a secretive cult member presidential hopeful running around here somewhere that has ties to Mexican enclaves?
The first (half) black president is shortly to be followed possibly by the first Mexican-American one.
How very Vibrant from those Republican voters!
Reports are saying he didnt even report anything. See article I posted link to below. If you listened to Freeh, they were not even allowed to speak with him.
Will you at least try to learn what you are talking about before talking?
The claim was about accomplice, not about crime. Accessory after the fact is arguable. Accomplice is not.
The claim was about accomplice, not about crime. Accessory after the fact is arguable. Accomplice is not.
I'm sure people charged with murder via conspiracy feel so much better because they weren't charged as "accomplices" or "accessories after the fact". Sure they face the full prison term for murder, but the NAME of the charge is difference and that is like a super big deal.
I said Paterno could easily and effortlessly be charged with child molestation via the conspiracy web. All it would take is Perp 1 having performed some other crime in relation to child-molestation and it being somehow arguable that Perp 2 was involved in that crime.
I like witness intimidation.
If an awful lot of money doesn't change hands - which it probably will - we're gonna find out the place has a liar-archy of Papist pervs who were not merely looking the other way/covering up, but active in this ring.
These perverts operate in packs, like most predatory animals; covering eachothers' ass when someone gets a peek behind the curtain is part of the mentality.
I'm sure people charged with murder via conspiracy feel so much better because they weren't charged as "accomplices" or "accessories after the fact". Sure they face the full prison term for murder, but the NAME of the charge is difference and that is like a super big deal.
THEY probably won't care. Commenters using inaccurate terminology should.
"I think the scandal goes much deeper than just Sandusky. The Second Mile charity was closed down immediately. Those people were likely involved in a huge pedophile ring exactly like the Franklin Scandal exposed. These people are NOT human. They are human predators. They destroy and kill our children. They are evil satanists and most who attempt to expose them get killed. Every once in a while one will leak through (like Sandusky) and they use him as a "see, we're looking after the children" routine while going on with their evil business abusing and killing children elsewhere. THIS is what is wrong with our world today--evil people are "ruling" it." - Kas
Exactly!
Paterno is a non-entity, since he's dead and can't be prosecuted.
While everyone's playing this rope-a-dope game, the rest of the rump-ranger ring is likely "retiring", resigning, getting a new job/"a better offer" from somewhere else where the kids are many and the diligent supervision is light.
Given the high likelihood of a similar pervert in the Blight House, it's probably pubic screwool in Florida, Jew Yakh or Californication.
The proper terminology used to describe Paterno would be piece of shit, or something along those lines. But proving Paternos biological structure was composed entirely of fecal matter would be difficult to prove in a court of law. Doesn't mean it aint proper.
THEY probably won't care. Commenters using inaccurate terminology should.
Yet I don't. So I guess that is just to bad for you, eh?
But I'm so real world and you are more of a word lawyer.
Maybe you could explain to me what "is" means?
Maybe you could explain to me what "is" means?
Not exhaustively. But "accomplice" has a legal definition, "is" doesn't.
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