ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2014 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Wednesday, November 14, 2012

675,000 secessionists

That's a lot more Americans than fought the original Revolutionary War.  Of course, it's easy to sign a digital petition and rather less easy to spend a hungry winter at Valley Forge, but the size and speed of the response does indicate how Americans feel about Obama's "America":
Less than a week after a New Orleans suburbanite petitioned the White House to allow Louisiana to secede from the United States, petitions from seven states have collected enough signatures to trigger a promised review from the Obama administration.

By 6:00 a.m. EST Wednesday, more than 675,000 digital signatures appeared on 69 separate secession petitions covering all 50 states, according to a Daily Caller analysis of requests lodged with the White House’s “We the People” online petition system.
Nothing will come of these PR-stunt petitions.  But they are an early sign of the secessionist struggles to come over the next two decades until the final dissolution in the 2033 timeframe.  Americans don't want to live in Mexico, Asia, or the Middle East, nor do they want to live in a post-America under Mexican, Asian, and Middle Eastern government.  Nor should they, as evidenced by the millions of immigrants who are, ironically but predictably, attempting to turn their new country into the same sort of place they left in the first place.

This is just what immigrants do if they are allowed to invade in sufficient numbers.  One Muslim immigrates, he eventually integrates, converts, and joins a church.  One hundred Muslims immigrate, they build a mosque and their own Muslim community that grows over time.  The Melting Pot isn't merely a myth, it is a idealistic fantasy about as relevant to historic human behavioral patterns as Star Trek.

I am a little surprised, however, as I expected the first serious secession talk to come out of the Aztecs of Aztlan.  The reaction to the election is remarkable because, as we all know, Romney wasn't going to govern much differently than Obama.  But it appears the symbolism of white Americans being deprived of their choice of president by an alliance of aliens has finally forced millions of Americans to realize that if things don't change drastically, they will eventually find themselves living in Detroit writ large.

I wonder if the United Nations will be as interested in helping those seeking the right to self-determination in Texas and Louisiana as they are in so many other countries around the world?  It will also be interesting to see if the Obama administration will continue to argue that Libyan and Syrian separatists need to be armed even as it wonders if it dares try to disarm American separatists.

Labels: ,

311 Comments:

1 – 200 of 311 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous O.C. November 14, 2012 1:00 PM  

> Nothing will come of these PR-stunt petitions.

Au contraire, mon ami. Sending your name and address to this regime as you declare yourself to be in opposition to it? That's bright.

Blogger The Aardvark November 14, 2012 1:01 PM  

Hmmm...

The president can now, by executive fiat, scoop up anyone off the street, or out of their homes, and hold them indefinitely it an undisclosed location.

People who disagree with the President and his policies are sending in signed petitions to the White House proclaiming their displeasure and their desire to leave.

Hmmmmmmmm....

Blogger The Aardvark November 14, 2012 1:02 PM  

Great minds run in the same rut.

Anonymous JartStar November 14, 2012 1:04 PM  

As things get worse do you think the out of power WASPs will proportionately get more of the blame? They appear to make great scapegoats and are verified cowards.

Anonymous Crispy November 14, 2012 1:06 PM  

I wonder if the United Nations will be as interested in helping those seeking the right to self-determination in Texas and Louisiana as they are in so many other countries around the world?

Will they be called "freedom fighters" or "domestic terrorists"?

Anonymous O.C. November 14, 2012 1:09 PM  

Well, "George W. Bush" doesn't quite have the same ring as "Emmanuel Goldstein," but yes, I expect the search for scapegoats, obstructionists, and counter-revolutionaries to proceed and expand in accord with the usual pattern.

Anonymous Josh November 14, 2012 1:09 PM  

Vox,

Have you been made aware of the organization Citizens for Self Government?

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 1:11 PM  

Here is the effect of the PR Stunt:

What was once the crazy talk of a fringe group of crazies... is now a topic of conversation. Secession is a word heard daily on the radio... on TV... and at the water cooler.

That is a big damned deal.

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 1:12 PM  

It's indicative of the sea change you highlighted in your last column. People are starting to acknowledge the reality of the loss of their country.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis November 14, 2012 1:12 PM  

Nothing will come from these petitions. Likewise I expect little good to come from secession. There would absolutely be war, absolutely be demographic infighting, and borders would absoultely redrawn. I find that the idea of secession resulting in new more prospereous republics a pipe dream. What is to stop what is happening now in America from happening in the new state nations? Nothing, the same conditions that lead to America's fall will exist. It isn't like the conservative states are that much less prone to statist tendencies than progressive ones. Given enough time the same things that happened to America would happen to Texas, Idaho, or any other state that ceded. Call me pestimistic, but if America sucumbs entirely to statism, and/or breaks apart, then I hold little hope for a free nation being established for any measure of time outside a century or two.

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 1:16 PM  

What was once the crazy talk of a fringe group of crazies... is now a topic of conversation. Secession is a word heard daily on the radio... on TV... and at the water cooler.

That is a big damned deal.


Yes. It's a paradigm shift as big as the demographic trends favoring Democrats. The first reaction will be attempted ridicule, followed by marginalization, followed by violent attack. The timeline is uncertain. The trend, not so much.

Anonymous WinstonWebb November 14, 2012 1:20 PM  

I hold little hope for a free nation being established for any measure of time outside a century or two.

But it is unquestionably good to live in one of those 100-200 year eras.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 1:20 PM  

We've already passed the ridicule stage... we're in the marginalization now.

Watch.. it will be passed off as "sour grapes". Its already begun.

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 1:22 PM  

Nate, personally, I'm waiting for the "Abe Lincoln proved that there's no right to secede" argument to appear.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum November 14, 2012 1:23 PM  

Meh...

Why should I care? Nations come and nations go. Governments come, governments change, governments go away, new ones show up in their place. Rome spilt down the middle, one side was overrule by a bunch of barbarians, the other side stay fine and dandy for another 1000 years or so calling themselves "Roman", why shouldn't America be any different?

As a nation founded on protestant, and masonic principles, this doesn't surprise me at all.

Anonymous Curlytop November 14, 2012 1:23 PM  

Stilicho November 14, 2012 1:22 PM
Nate, personally, I'm waiting for the "Abe Lincoln proved that there's no right to secede" argument to appear.

The timing of Spielberg's flick is quite interesting...

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 1:23 PM  

Yep... and John Wilkes Booth rebutted him rather convincingly.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 1:24 PM  

I don't think anyone expects new more prosperous republics. I do think people expect culturally governed republics.

"Balkanization," after all is neither a pure evil, nor identical to non-Balkanization.

Blogger ajw308 November 14, 2012 1:25 PM  

This will be used by the powers to be to call for a Constitutional Convention since. I expect that they'll claim that the concept is outdated and that the US is now to big to take apart.

Anonymous Stingray November 14, 2012 1:26 PM  

There is another petition that has been put into the White House to strip the citizenship of those who have signed the secession petitions.

Anonymous The Gray Man November 14, 2012 1:27 PM  

Vox Day: But it appears the symbolism of white Americans being deprived of their choice of president by an alliance of aliens has finally forced millions of Americans to realize that if things don't change drastically, they will eventually find themselves living in Detroit writ large.

I don't think many of them are thinking it out logically yet, but there is an emotional appeal to secession out there that has not existed in the past four years.

When I was a hardcore libertarian four or five years ago, I would make pro-secession posts and comments only to be ridiculed by Republicans (even in the early 2009 Obama era). I've become much more traditonalist and conservative since, but I am still greatly in favor of secession and am way more "racially" aware than I was then.

I have seen quite a few people post on Facebook and comment on a few sites I go to seem far more open to the idea of secession than in the past. I do not think many of them have actually rationalized their motives as subconsciously drawing racial lines, but that's exactly what they're doing.

It might take five or ten more years before anything truly comes out of it. The amount of brainwashing over the past 50 years is simply too much to push such a complacent population into civil war. If this was 1963, we would be crushing the minorities in one swift blow. But it's not anymore, we're nearing minority status and most people are too indoctrinated to realize what's happened.

I think the next big realization will come in 2016. If whites do not vote as one large bloc, they will likely lose the election and it will start to become apparent that no Republican will ever win an election again. The true seeds of disconent will be blossoming, though they will still probably grow slowly without violence from the darker masses making an aggressive war-like move first.

Anonymous VD November 14, 2012 1:29 PM  

It's not only immigration, but Californication that created the problem. McRapey is a prime example of it. He'll blithely vote for "America" from the safety of his white, traditional American enclave, denigrating white, traditional America all the while, right up until the moment that he is forced to recognize that the orcs are, in fact, orcs, and not hobbits.

Anonymous The Gray Man November 14, 2012 1:33 PM  

Vox Day: It's not only immigration, but Californication that created the problem. McRapey is a prime example of it. He'll blithely vote for "America" from the safety of his white, traditional American enclave, denigrating white, traditional America all the while, right up until the moment that he is forced to recognize that the orcs are, in fact, orcs, and not hobbits.

This is a great example and an excellent way of putting it. The rich, upperclass Americans who might never mention their racial "awareness" but subconsciously act on it at all times try to live in denial as they live in enclaves surrounded by similar people. A black doctor moves in to their enclave--Oh, he's fine, he's rich, smart, and he's the only black guy within a half mile of us. Black people are great!

But they always ignore the ghettos and the black areas across the city.

Anonymous Tad November 14, 2012 1:41 PM  

@Vox Day "but the size and speed of the response does indicate how Americans feel about Obama's "America"

Actually it doesn't mean this. It indicates how SOME "Americans" feel about Obama. But my guess is that a large number of those signing are those at the lower end of the income and education scale. Still....It's not a representation of "America".


"The Melting Pot isn't merely a myth, it is a idealistic fantasy about as relevant to historic human behavioral patterns as Star Trek."

Tell that to the Italians, Irish, Germans, Russians, Jews, Chinese, etc. who came to America and melted in quite nicely. This racist view of immigration is so old.... Is there updating the philosophies underlying hate and ignorance?

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 1:42 PM  

Vox, as far as Mexico goes it is not immigration but a migration. Not that you don't know, but you are an immigrant they are migrants. Or am I mistaken in my terms?

Anonymous Leonidas November 14, 2012 1:45 PM  

What was once the crazy talk of a fringe group of crazies... is now a topic of conversation. Secession is a word heard daily on the radio... on TV... and at the water cooler.

That is a big damned deal.


Yes. It's a paradigm shift as big as the demographic trends favoring Democrats. The first reaction will be attempted ridicule, followed by marginalization, followed by violent attack. The timeline is uncertain. The trend, not so much.


This is basically how the secessionist movement that preceded the Civil War looked in about, oh, the late 1840s and early 1850s. There's no guarantee that history will repeat... but it's what I'd put my money on.

@Credo in Unum Deum:

Meh...

Why should I care?


Because it's very likely to involve a violent and bloody civil war, just like it did the last time.

Anonymous The Gray Man November 14, 2012 1:51 PM  

Tad, I don't think you've been around here very long. Vox has writte nseveral interesting posts on the "old" melting pot groups that you've mentioned. I would recommend clicking on some of the related tags/"Labels" and going through some of his old posts.

Anonymous RedJack November 14, 2012 1:55 PM  

Tad,
As a son of Nebraska and German stock, the Germans DID NOT melt quickly. Pres. Wilson destroyed their heritage by the point of a gun in WWI.

Irish? Italians? Where do you live?

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick November 14, 2012 1:55 PM  

Shall it be the Bonnie Blue or the Stars and Bars?

Anonymous . November 14, 2012 1:56 PM  

"Because it's very likely to involve a violent and bloody civil war, just like it did the last time."

Every time a liberal mentions this, it is in scornful, "Great, good riddance to all the Christian Nazi Republitards!" tone of voice. Why would they fight to keep the people they hate so much in the Union?

Anonymous VD November 14, 2012 1:58 PM  

Shall it be the Bonnie Blue or the Stars and Bars?

Gadsden. Definitely Gadsden.

Every time a liberal mentions this, it is in scornful, "Great, good riddance to all the Christian Nazi Republitards!" tone of voice. Why would they fight to keep the people they hate so much in the Union?

First, because liberals seldom speak the truth. Their very name for themselves is a lie. Second, because they are parasites and they know it. They will fight to stay attached to the host.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis November 14, 2012 1:58 PM  

"I hold little hope for a free nation being established for any measure of time outside a century or two.

But it is unquestionably good to live in one of those 100-200 year eras."

If those republics are established then absolutely. I remain doubtful that secession will offer that for us for a variety of reasons. Also, the idealist in me sincerely wishes that we created something special, something enduring, when it comes to America. I still hold out some hope, though it has wavered recently.


"Meh...

Why should I care? Nations come and nations go. Governments come, governments change, governments go away, new ones show up in their place. Rome spilt down the middle, one side was overrule by a bunch of barbarians, the other side stay fine and dandy for another 1000 years or so calling themselves "Roman", why shouldn't America be any different?

As a nation founded on protestant, and masonic principles, this doesn't surprise me at all."

The US is not Rome circa the split. Rome was split between east and west due to geographic considerations, and fortunately for rome the provincial boarders in Europe where the line was drawn happened to coincide with geographical features. The way the US is organized internally is entirely different. Many of our states boundaries do not coincide with geopgrahics, or demographic for that matter, boundaries. Best case scenario, assuming there is no war and that states are allowed to secede, would be like the partitioning of India. The divide is not midwest vs coasts, but rather rural vs urban. A 'peaceful' partitioning would still entail massive violence and death that would be comes with mass migration.

Now I have no faith whatsoever that this will happen peacefully, or even succeed because of the nature of the divide in America. It will be far to easy for authorities to pit groups of each other within the states, and then have federal authorities move in to restore 'normalcy'. I have always contended that America is Rome circa Marius, Sulla, and Caesar. And I still contend that to this day. People first and foremost want peace and security, and if a charismatic leader, backed by military force, decides to clamp down on unrest (and perhaps focus that energy outward towards conflict with other nations) then people will flock to that leader. Sooner or later I expect someone to cross the rubicon, though in our case it will be the potomac. In the end the end result, fragmentation would be the same, if delayed for a few decades or centuries.

Anonymous WinstonWebb November 14, 2012 1:59 PM  

Why would they fight to keep the people they hate so much in the Union?

For the same two reasons Lincoln: Money & Power

Anonymous Sheila November 14, 2012 2:00 PM  

I don't expect much to come of this; just as with the libertarian "free state" project to move to New Hampshire, a few vanguardists might take action but most will gradually sink back into their typical torpor. Gray Man's point about 2016 is a valid one, albeit it's not that a "Republican" won't ever win again, it's that a White male won't ever be president again. As the "Obama" era draws to a close, and Whites realize that nothing will return to the old "normal" and BRA on steroids is here to stay, there may be a temporary resurgence of secessionist patter. Not to worry; it's just like the lobster banging against the pot as it is immersed in boiling water.

Anonymous Philalethes November 14, 2012 2:00 PM  

..the millions of immigrants who are, ironically but predictably, attempting to turn their new country into the same sort of place they left in the first place.

Before the War Tucson, Arizona was less than a tenth its present size. Then Midwesterners discovered its dry climate and began migrating to southern Arizona in droves to escape the seasonal blooms of pollen in the damp, lush Midwest. But they found themselves homesick in a very strange land, so naturally they began planting all their familiar plants (and using up the very limited local underground aquifers). Now Tucson has a higher pollen count (so I've heard) than Des Moines.

Anonymous re allow anonymous comments November 14, 2012 2:01 PM  

They should all pick a state and move there. Oh wait

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 2:02 PM  

"First, because liberals seldom speak the truth. Their very name for themselves is a lie. Second, because they are parasites and they know it. They will fight to stay attached to the host."

Preach it.

Fact is... they had the exact same attitude last time... and they still fought. Because ultimately in their hearts they knew they were the parasites.

Anonymous Leonidas November 14, 2012 2:04 PM  

Now I have no faith whatsoever that this will happen peacefully, or even succeed because of the nature of the divide in America. It will be far to easy for authorities to pit groups of each other within the states, and then have federal authorities move in to restore 'normalcy'. I have always contended that America is Rome circa Marius, Sulla, and Caesar.

Agreed 100%. America is becoming ripe for a complete conversion into a true empire (as opposed to the de facto empire it is today). It's not quite ready yet, IMO, but it's getting there - and the pace is accelerating.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 2:04 PM  

Tad, you keep dropping the "r" before the "d" in your handle.

Outlaw X, I think you are mixing up your definitions.

Immigrant is someone who comes into a country. Emigrant is someone who leaves. Migrant is just a generic word for immigrant/emigrant (i.e. someone who has left a country/moved to a new country), although it occasionally is used for someone who wanders within a country, and may or may not be an immigrant, but that is a rare usage.

In any case, Vox is an American emigrant (he left here) and an Italian immigrant (he came there) and in any case is a migrant, as opposed to a native of where he lives.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick November 14, 2012 2:04 PM  

OT: Vox you ever gonna tell us what it's like to become an Italian?

Anonymous Philalethes November 14, 2012 2:06 PM  

"The Balkanization of America" by Edgar J. Steele: some intelligent discussion of possible futures.

Anonymous JartStar November 14, 2012 2:06 PM  

The breakup can't and won't come until the state National Guard/Military determines that their paychecks are not forthcoming from DC and/or they are asked to kill their neighbors.

Tell that to the Italians, Irish, Germans, Russians, Jews, Chinese, etc. who came to America and melted in quite nicely.

I like your quaint belief that the "melting pot" magically overcomes tribalism.

While some here can't seem to wait for the bullets to start flying for whatever strange reasons, to deny that empires with broad ethnic diversity do not fracture when times are difficult is historically ignorant.

This isn't racist wishful thinking on Vox's part but pointing out a near historical certitude. When the US finally goes bankrupt and if the various ethnic groups and states stay unified with little or no conflict it would go down as one of the most remarkable events in history of all time.

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 2:09 PM  

Fact is... they had the exact same attitude last time... and they still fought. Because ultimately in their hearts they knew they were the parasites.

You cannot have a socialist utopia without serfs to do the work. Lots and lots of serfs.

Anonymous JartStar November 14, 2012 2:12 PM  

BTW if you are actually looking forward to the breakup of the US along cultural and ethnic lines you are crazy. It is the equivalent of a Roman citizen living in one of the provinces being happy that the Empire is breaking up because too many Gauls have entered and the latest emperor was a bastard.

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 14, 2012 2:12 PM  

"Tell that to the Italians, Irish, Germans, Russians, Jews, Chinese, etc. who came to America and melted in quite nicely."

Simple-minded, with a poor grasp of history and a poor grasp of the present issues at stake, which are not identical. Move to strike.

"This racist view of immigration is so old.... Is there updating the philosophies underlying hate and ignorance?"

It is very, very tiresome, when these sorts of discussions arise, to hear these weak-minded appeals to propaganda words like racism, hate, and ignorance. Serious-minded, highly-civilized people are trying to have a discussion here. All you're trying to do is spike the punchbowl with a pint of Gyorgy Vodka.

Really, the name-calling, it is stale and it is old, and it is not interesting nor persuasive, and moreover it is not what is really going on here. If you want to participate in a discussion like this and be taken seriously, then you have got to check your copy of Al Jaffee's Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions at the door; because NONE of the questions being raised here are stupid.

Anonymous paradox November 14, 2012 2:14 PM  

"That's a lot more Americans than fought the original Revolutionary War."

Thirteen Colonies seceded from Britain in 1775. It's ridiculous lately how many times I've had to point that out, to all the people stating secession doesn't work.

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 2:15 PM  

I like your quaint belief that the "melting pot" magically overcomes tribalism.

The German side of my family came over from Berlin in 1690. My eldest aunt still likes to tell the story of how (circa WWII) her grandmother and her friends always spoke German amongst themselves, but not when the children were around because they wanted the kids to become more Americanized and to not have an accent. So, it only took 250 years!

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 14, 2012 2:16 PM  

VD: "I expected the first serious secession talk to come out of the Aztecs of Aztlan."

And then, VD later: "[Liberals] are parasites and they know it. They will fight to stay attached to the host."

Since the Aztecs are of course liberal clients, you've answered your own previous conundrum. Clearly you've been away in Bella Italia for too long.

"Ask a dog what is happening. Go ahead. Ask him."
-- John Ashbery

Anonymous rienzi November 14, 2012 2:17 PM  

The Gray Man wrote:
The rich, upperclass Americans who might never mention their racial "awareness" but subconsciously act on it at all times try to live in denial as they live in enclaves surrounded by similar people. A black doctor moves in to their enclave--Oh, he's fine, he's rich, smart, and he's the only black guy within a half mile of us. Black people are great!

I had this happen when I lived in a high-end suburb of St. Louis, only the black guy was a corporate exec. not a doctor. Everything was cool until a Memorial Day weekend, when he seemingly invited his entire extended family, and all of their friends, from the ghetto.

It was nothing but rap so loud it shook the window panes, and groups of vibrant youths strutting up and down the street, grabbing their crotches, and throwing empty forty-ouncers of King Cobra all over everyones' lawns for half a day. Finally most of the local cops showed up all at once, and put a stop to the festivities.

To everyone's great relief, the black exec. put his house up for sale, and moved out a few months later.

Anonymous scoobius dubious November 14, 2012 2:25 PM  

"It was nothing but rap so loud it shook the window panes, and groups of vibrant youths strutting up and down the street, grabbing their crotches, and throwing empty forty-ouncers of King Cobra all over everyones' lawns"

And just out of curiosity: did any of the neighbors, or the locals, confront these creatures and tell them firmly to behave while on someone else's turf?

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 2:26 PM  

BTW if you are actually looking forward to the breakup of the US along cultural and ethnic lines you are crazy.

I don't look forward to it, but I don't think those who do are crazy. It isn't like anyone (besides maybe Bane R.I.P.) really enjoys blowing holes in the heads of their enemies and surviving during a violent secession, but the reason relatively sane people will do it in the future is the same ones sane people did it in the past:

It was the best option in their interests at the time.

So, maybe what some people are looking forward to is preparation for getting rid of a pretty lousy and corrupt situation for a period of turmoil that has a chance to lead to something better.

I don't think that's crazy.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 2:29 PM  

"BTW if you are actually looking forward to the breakup of the US along cultural and ethnic lines you are crazy. "

I've long said the only ones alive that will profit will be the undertakers.

But that said... our children's children have a lot to gain.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 2:30 PM  

"Since the Aztecs are of course liberal clients, you've answered your own previous conundrum. Clearly you've been away in Bella Italia for too long."

You don't understand the CIA funded Mexican mafia. They don't just want the white man out they want him dead. It is not the same animal Vox is talking about. And Mr. black man they will kill you too given half a chance. The danger to the south and civil war is not the NY Jew it is La Raza.

Vox is right, just go south of Interstate 10 in Texas.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 14, 2012 2:30 PM  

The regime will not allow it. Still much looting to do. The usual suspects will depart for their Mediterranean villas only once they literally own everything in the country: all the farmland, all the natural resources, etc. They'll leave for better looting opportunities only when their present host is a dried-up husk. The only way a state or region would actually be able to break off from the blood-funnels would be if they acquired sufficient nukes of WMDs to vaporize New York, Sodom-on-Potomac, LA, and Chicago. They'd have to be willing to actually pull the damned trigger, too. The parasite and looter class will not allow anything of this nature to take place in the near term. You can count on plenty of "Tea-Party Patriot" and "conservative" mountebanks to show up and start fleecing the feckless over the issue, however. Republicans 2.0.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner November 14, 2012 2:43 PM  

Secession, then a Swiss or Articles of Confederation model for the "New America".

The "Old America" will cannibalize themselves when they run out of other peoples money.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 14, 2012 2:43 PM  

Stilicho:
Nate, personally, I'm waiting for the "Abe Lincoln proved that there's no right to secede" argument to appear.

You don't have to wait, the Spielberg hagiography of the greatest Republican is set to be released very shortly.... just in time. The reality of the old railroad shyster is that he double-crossed the squids who loaned him money to loot and pillage the south by printing all those damned United States Notes. The war was already over when Booth visited him in Ford's Theater just when his guard stepped outside. Even so, Sic semper tyrannis was true in his case.

Anonymous drose November 14, 2012 2:47 PM  

Ok so my family and I are white and live in Michigan. What's the best state for us to move to in the event of a break up of the Union? I am thinking Tennesse(assuming they actually seceded). Any thoughts?

Anonymous Just Mark November 14, 2012 2:50 PM  

The civil war will start and succede when the Untited States defaults on the world banking cartel. Then it will be time to allow the US to disolve into several nations. New debt slaves for the market if you will and just punishment for the government who can no longer make payments on loans magically created at a keyboard.

Blogger ajw308 November 14, 2012 2:51 PM  

That's a lot more Americans than fought the original Revolutionary War.
More relevantly, that's about how many died the last time secession was tried.

Anonymous paradox November 14, 2012 2:57 PM  

Gen. Kong

The only way a state or region would actually be able to break off from the blood-funnels would be if they acquired sufficient nukes of WMDs to vaporize New York, Sodom-on-Potomac, LA, and Chicago. They'd have to be willing to actually pull the damned trigger, too.


Read the fictional book Molon Labe . In the book, they don't really secede but, they nullify everything federal and they have the means to back it up.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 2:57 PM  

More relevantly, that's about how many died the last time secession was tried.

Not entirely true. That's how many died the last time strict federal unionization was tried.

Anonymous 11B November 14, 2012 2:59 PM  

I am a little surprised, however, as I expected the first serious secession talk to come out of the Aztecs of Aztlan.

They might have average IQs in the high 80s, but they are not stupid. So long as they are part of Uncle Sam's union, they will continue to get benefits and affirmative action. Plus the culture has already shifted to make them feel at home. They have Spanish language media, businesses carry Spanish signage and they can vote and take driver's exams in Spanish. What's not to like?

If they seceded it, they would become Mexico and not get Uncle Sam's bennies.

Anonymous Anonymous November 14, 2012 2:59 PM  

Watching Ron Paul's speech today felt the beginning of the end times. Possibly America's last true statesman.

Blogger James Dixon November 14, 2012 3:02 PM  

> That's bright.

Exactly what I've been thinking.

> This will be used by the powers to be to call for a Constitutional Convention...

I'm also wondering about that. The possibilities are "interesting".

> Shall it be the Bonnie Blue or the Stars and Bars?

Of those two, the Stars and Bars. The battle flag. But better the Gadsden flag, as Vox says. Though I personally prefer the Culpeper version.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 3:16 PM  

675,000 digital signatures ≠ 675,000 secessionists

Many of the people who signed did so on multiple petitions. Additionally, some of those 69 petitions were actually anti-secession petitions, for places like Austin to secede from Texas if they secede from the US.

Regardless of the actual number, I expect there will be just as much attention paid to those 675,000 signatures as is being paid to the 1.2+ million votes for Gary Johnson.

Anonymous Josh November 14, 2012 3:18 PM  

Ok so my family and I are white and live in Michigan. What's the best state for us to move to in the event of a break up of the Union? I am thinking Tennesse(assuming they actually seceded). Any thoughts?

The great state of Tennessee rocks.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 3:23 PM  

Regardless of the actual number, I expect there will be just as much attention paid to those 675,000 signatures as is being paid to the 1.2+ million votes for Gary Johnson.

WH isn't required by law to give an official response to Johnson voters.

It's basically a way to get D.C.'s stance on secession in writing. I'll be interested to see what they say.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 3:24 PM  

"The great state of Tennessee rocks."

I've been to Memphis ;0 Lubbock, TX is the best place to go.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 3:30 PM  

Don't listen to Josh... TN is turning into liberal hell.

Alabama.

Anonymous rienzi November 14, 2012 3:34 PM  

Scoobi Dubious said: "It was nothing but rap so loud it shook the window panes, and groups of vibrant youths strutting up and down the street, grabbing their crotches, and throwing empty forty-ouncers of King Cobra all over everyones' lawns"

And just out of curiosity: did any of the neighbors, or the locals, confront these creatures and tell them firmly to behave while on someone else's turf?



No, that would have been about as effective as trying to explain property rights to the chimps at the zoo. The castle doctrine at the time in Missouri isn't like it is in Florida. You can't remove vibrant youth from your lawn with a Mossberg. Hence the calls to the cops.

Anonymous JP (real one) November 14, 2012 3:35 PM  

Between BetaraeusGate and a sharply falling stock market, Obama's second term couldn't have started much worse. (For the record, the stock market usually does well in November, particularly after an incumbent is elected.)

Anonymous Rollory November 14, 2012 3:42 PM  

"It is the equivalent of a Roman citizen living in one of the provinces being happy that the Empire is breaking up because too many Gauls have entered and the latest emperor was a bastard."

But this was precisely the attitude among many citizens of the Empire. They WELCOMED barbarian rule, and did not lift a finger to stop it, in large part because it meant the late empire's crushing taxation burden was removed.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 3:45 PM  

Daniel: "WH isn't required by law to give an official response to Johnson voters."

They also aren't required by law to respond to these petitions. It is a system that was set up to allow people to "address grievances", but wasn't created by law.

Additionally, since the website states that similar petitions may be addressed in a single response, and that petitions may be addressed before the threshold is met, I expect all of the state secession petitions to be dismissed with a singular response along the lines of, "it's unconstitutional" or "this needs to be addressed by respective state legislatures".

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 3:48 PM  

JP (real one): "Between BetaraeusGate and a sharply falling stock market, Obama's second term couldn't have started much worse."

Technically, his second term hasn't started yet, so there's still a (slim) chance these things will improve before then.

But I know what you mean.

Anonymous HH November 14, 2012 3:50 PM  

Seems like a big number until we realize that 675,000 out of 311,591,917 = .21% of the people in the US - hardly a noticeable amount if they left.. do we think Italy could would take them all at once or will we need to sneak them in over time :)

VD, you may need to open up the guest room and get a few extra sets of linens... :)



Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 3:56 PM  

HH: "VD, you may need to open up the guest room and get a few extra sets of linens... :)"

He can't take them; he already has all those lesbian Eskimos living with him.

Anonymous fred November 14, 2012 4:02 PM  

I too was born in and live in MI. But my family was originally from a number of places south (mostly TN and MS but a few in GA, AL, and FL). I've thought several times about relocating south (or west). Union country can be the pits. My first impulse would have been Tennessee. Bummer to hear that TN has apparently fallen over time.

Anonymous JP (real one) November 14, 2012 4:03 PM  

"Technically, his second term hasn't started yet, so there's still a (slim) chance these things will improve before then.

But I know what you mean."

Right, I should have said post-election. This is probably the worst 10 days I've ever seen for a president who was just re-elected. The secession thing is just a little more icing on the cake.

Anonymous HH November 14, 2012 4:03 PM  

And in order to sign the petition you have to sign up at the web site -- so now all the traitors/secessionist/rebels have identified yourselves it should take not time at all for the men in black SUVs to round you up and provide you with an all expense paid vacation to Guantanamo. :)

Part of the problem is that no matter how bad the US gets, everywhere else is pretty much worse -- where would you move that would be better ? Russia, China, South America, Europe, North Dakota ? seems like the choices are limited.

Anonymous Anonymous November 14, 2012 4:05 PM  

I am sure the government is paying quite a lot of attention to those petitions; especially at the DHS and IRS. Would you want to bet on whether the tax audit rate on the petition signers will be higher than the statistical average? I shudder to think what DHS will do with those names if Big Sister gets spooked.

Blogger ajw308 November 14, 2012 4:08 PM  

Seems like a big number until we realize that 675,000 out of 311,591,917 = .21% of the people in the US - hardly a noticeable amount if they left..
Yes, but how many of those are John Galt?

Anonymous Seriously... November 14, 2012 4:09 PM  

Soooo where can one move to where the main demographic will be white for the foreseeable future? Does such a place exist?

Anonymous HH November 14, 2012 4:16 PM  

yeah .. but "who is John Galt ?" :)

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis November 14, 2012 4:22 PM  

As pointed out by many before 675,000 is not that many individuals when compared to the entire population of the the republic. However, it is a relatively significant size if we viewed it as a military force. Now that 675,000 is not necessarily the number willing to fight, in fact, I would wager less than a percent of those individuals would actually be willing to take up arms against the federal government.

Like I said earlier, state secession is an almost impossibility due to the nature of the divide. This could change over time to a more regional divide, however, at this current place and time it doesn't exist. The current unrest actually suits the federal government better than a regional one. Yes they will have a hard time to maintain control over certain areas, and yes the federal government would probably love to not have any unrest; however, disparate isolated regions of unrest are easy to stamp out. The farmlands of easter Washington are not connected, logistically speaking, to the farmlands of Nebraska.

Here is the electoral map by county

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTALzbB8Obbd32VFnNP6VBgW3tDE0FmmFPra5yu0xoLTSFDNlA2-22c-nKwJQ

This would appear to make progressivism isolated within the midwest, but that isn't quite the case. This image gives a far better picture of the reality.

http://chartporn.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/image11.png

It would be really hard to draw a continguous border if we assumed the country would split according to how the area voted. Until you see something like the 1968 election, where a large continguous chunk of the US voted a single way, then I don't think you will see s secession movement that would have a chance in hell of putting a real fight.

Anonymous stats79 November 14, 2012 4:23 PM  

"my guess is that a large number of those signing are those at the lower end of the income and education scale."

Huh, blacks, Mexicans and Jews are signing the petition? Who would have thought.

Anonymous stats79 November 14, 2012 4:25 PM  

Soooo where can one move to where the main demographic will be white for the foreseeable future? Does such a place exist?

Northern Europe.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 4:29 PM  

History cannot predict anything. The forces required for secession that were present in 1860 America, 1990 Yugoslavia, and 2010 Middle East do not exist. Crime in America has reached a 48 year low, unseen since the all-white 1960s.

Until you can grasp that fact and what's causing it, Vox, you will never figure out what America is becoming. I'll give you a hint: it's something that was not present in the 1960s America, 1990s Yugoslavia, and the current Middle East, but is ubiquitous now. Welfare and government debt will actually be an important part of maintaining this society, and for the first time in human history, it will actually work.

OpenID 839ced88-2ea2-11e2-95a1-000f20980440 November 14, 2012 4:31 PM  

Just checking in to see how Mr Mensa is taking the re-election.

"But it appears the symbolism of white Americans being deprived of their choice of president by an alliance of aliens has finally forced millions of Americans to realize that if things don't change drastically, they will eventually find themselves living in Detroit writ large."

Where to begin? "Aliens" "deprive" white Americans--the ones who inflicted Bush upon these United States? "Millions"? 675K is substantially less than ONE million, genius. And just when is Einstein going to figure out that Detroit is fundamentally different from other cities, in that it is entirely dependent on a single industry? "If things don't change drastically"--you'll what, hold your breath till you turn blue? I swear, you conservatives have come to resemble nothing so much as a pack of screaming, peevish children.

Babble on, Vox.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 14, 2012 4:31 PM  

Look at it this way: Does anyone here think there would have even been discussion of secession if Mittens was the teleprompter-reader elect? We know that D'Won on d'downlow and his supporters are treasonous genocial pieces of goose-turd green. They carry their Satanic flag more-or-less openly. If you take away nothing else, take this: Republicans are the enemy. Look at the response from the alleged "opposition" party to the long list of crimes, usurpations, etc.

The House of Representatives, which really needs to be renamed as the Boehner's Brokeback Bathhouse, could shut down Obamacare with a simple majority vote by defunding its implementation. They could impeach and remove the lawless genocidal criminal Eric Holder from office, or at least defund the DOJ and BATFE until he and his acolytes all resigned. They could impeach lawless federal blackrobes. They could defund all of the imperial adventures to make the Ummah safe for feminsim, sodomy and the Amurikan way. They have done absolutely nothing of the sort in the two years since being voted into office. Instead, what we're seeing is them falling all over themselves to surrender on every possible issue. So much for the great Tea-Party revolution. It's like watching Charlie Brown and Lucy, over and over and over again.

What VD stated in his recent WND article was quite accurate. The constitutional republic has been dead for a very long time - probably since 1865. The thing that took place last week was that some of the intact-appearing skin fell away to reveal the squirming mass of maggots and blowflies therein. The primary purpose of the Republican party is to keep folks from understanding that the thing they're looking at is a corpse, and that the smell which fills their nostrils is somehow not putrid, but the latest fashion in body fragrace. Let's put some wax over here to cover this funny-looking spot, while I reach into your back pocket and take your wallet to help out this poor starving banksta. Republicans are the enemy.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 4:31 PM  

"History cannot predict anything. The forces required for secession that were present in 1860 America, 1990 Yugoslavia, and 2010 Middle East do not exist. Crime in America has reached a 48 year low, unseen since the all-white 1960s."

This is so much BS.

Crime in america is through the roof. Reporting of crime is at an all-time low.


Honestly dude I have no idea where you live... but it must suck. We have literally thousands upon thousands of angry armed people prepared to do violence.

We absolutely have the forces to do anything we want.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 4:32 PM  

Waterboy
I expect all of the state secession petitions to be dismissed with a singular response along the lines of, "it's unconstitutional" or "this needs to be addressed by respective state legislatures".

You realize that's the desired outcome of the petitions, right? So that secessionists have a dismissal they can point to?

"Look, feds, we tried to play ball. We really did. But you said 'deal with it yourself!' or 'you can't read!' and so we read, and we dealt with it ourselves."

I don't think any signatory believes these petitions are the actual divorce papers.

Anonymous Sexual Chocolate Imperion November 14, 2012 4:32 PM  

This is the real deal on secession

We are really in some uncharted territory. History can be our guide. It does not always repeat. However, it more than does not rhyme. The War of Mutual Christian Annihilation (aka as the Civil War, War Between the States, War of Northern Aggression, et al) is not fully applicable, because of advanced technology since. Texas has its own power grid, food, energy, and ports to sustain itself against any kind of blockade. I would like to see the U.S. Navy attempt a blockade of Texas ports.

The U.S. govt certainly pretends to be Rome. (just look at D.C. architecture and symbology). However, America is not pagan Rome. Too much of the military is of Judean-Christian heritage. They (the officer corps) may act contrary to their heritage at first (simple solder conditioning). But, it will wear down over time. It can be bloody at first. This is human nature we will deal with, possibly at its worst, and finest. Even in fictional accounts, characters like Miles Matheson and Edward Beck break and come to their senses.

As Holland exposits, outright secession of the individual states may never become necessary. The U.S. govt can't even contain Afghanistan, much less it can contain an entire union of insurgents (with advanced weaponry). And, this is quite mind-blowing, Texas actually had its own Marine Corps. What other state in the Union can make that claim? I cannot source this at this time, but my understanding, that a majority of all Marines in U.S. Marine history, were at one time or another, a resident of Texas.

As for me, all others can go to hell. I will stay in Texas...

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 4:35 PM  

Egads, Kong. Guess I won't be eating this sausage I'd been saving.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 4:39 PM  

Well friends, Yahoo now reports that secessionist petitions have been filed in ALL FIFTY STATES! The time to strike is while the iron is hot. Faster on the bellows.

Anonymous White Chocolate November 14, 2012 4:41 PM  

Is Sexual Chocolate, Dread?

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 4:41 PM  

Crime in america is through the roof. Reporting of crime is at an all-time low.

You said the same thing about the 2012 election. Republican support was through the roof! But it was the reporting of Republican support was at an all time low!

Guess what? Numbers are the best tool for establishing how big something is, not feelings. Stop listening to your feelings. If you did that, you'd know that Black, vibrant youths spend more time playing video games than Americans watch television. This, by the way, is a big clue to what America is evolving into.

You and Vox are about as in touch with reality as Ronald Reagan post 1990.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering November 14, 2012 4:43 PM  

"I've been to Memphis ;0 Lubbock, TX is the best place to go."

As a former, east Tennessee hillbilly, I can say, unequivocally... Memphis ain't Tennessee.

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 4:43 PM  

"I would like to see the U.S. Navy attempt a blockade of Texas ports."

I'm no naval expert, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but what makes you think it would be all that difficult for the Navy to blockade Texas?

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 4:50 PM  

@Kong

I think we're so far gone that if the House actually defunded anything, the executive branch would just ignore it, like they did last year when they looted federal pensions when the House put on their little show and didn't raise the debt limit on the timeline they were given. And if the House actually had the nerve to defund any part of government, the media would be talking all about this quaint, outdated, and racist notion that the House still holds the purse strings.

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 4:50 PM  

As a former, east Tennessee hillbilly, I can say, unequivocally... Memphis ain't Tennessee.

What do you think of Bristol? Chattanooga? Knoxville?

Josh?

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 4:51 PM  

"I'm no naval expert, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but what makes you think it would be all that difficult for the Navy to blockade Texas?"

Like I've said before... Look how many naval bases are IN the south. The US military is steeped in Southrons... and they live and work in the SOUTH.

Its one thing to ask the Ohio Militia to burn Atlanta. Asking it to burn down Cincinnati is entirely different.

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 4:51 PM  

Not that the House shouldn't actually try to do their jobs and uphold their sworn oaths.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 4:51 PM  

Sexual Chocolate Imperion wrote:
"I would like to see the U.S. Navy attempt a blockade of Texas ports."

Yeah, Texas and what navy again? The Coast Guard in their little dinky speedboats?

Also, good luck trying to shoot down fighter jets blowing up ships getting in and out of the ports.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 4:54 PM  

Daniel: "You realize that's the desired outcome of the petitions, right? So that secessionists have a dismissal they can point to?"

They already have such dismissals. USA Patriot Act. Kelo v. City of New London. Anwar al-Awlaki. The list goes on and on. The summary dismissal of these petitions will be no different; one more log on the fire of outrage, which will still fail to burn out of control. A temporary flare-up before it eases back into that nice, comfortable warmth that is perfect for toasting marshmallows.

But by all means, file the petitions. They can join We the People Foundation, Inc. v. United States; that one was rejected all the way up at the SCOTUS level, but I doubt these will manage to make it up that far.

Anybody got some graham crackers and chocolate?

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 4:54 PM  

Cogitans Iuvenis....."I would wager less than a percent of those individuals would actually be willing to take up arms against the federal government."

I have not signed any of the petitions and I am willing to wager twice that amount that "less than a percent of those individuals who WOULD actually be willing to take up arms against the federal government" have signed any such petition either.

I am surrounded by them and they talk about it all the time but the last thing they are going to do is sign their name to a petition to PEACEFULLY SECEED FROM THE FEDERAL UNION, which is exactly what the petitions call for.

These petitions are the latest grasp by a few to avoid what they know will not be so peaceful otherwise. The question is not whether states can or will seceed, the question is whether it can be accomplished peacefully. Americans are a peace-loving people and they had rather accomplish an amicable divorce rather than resort to dueling pistols to resolve their conflicts.

Women can understand two people who are incompatible and have irreconcilable differences...who have grown apart over the years.....agreeing to split the blanket and go on with their separate lives. They do it every day. These petitions are an olive branch and in the other hand they hold a sword.


Anonymous Vitus_Bering November 14, 2012 4:58 PM  

"What do you think of Bristol? Chattanooga? Knoxville?"

Bristol and the tri-cities is nice, I think.

Knoxville's main street is Gay Street. Enough said.

Chattanooga, the home of moonpies, is wonderful.

Anonymous HH November 14, 2012 4:59 PM  

"Honestly dude I have no idea where you live... but it must suck. We have literally thousands upon thousands of angry armed people prepared to do violence.

We absolutely have the forces to do anything we want."

The ability of a militia raising and fighting the government is not practical or even possible in this age. Modern warfare has long since surpassed running around in the woods with a rifle. They can see you and kill you before you can see or hear them... don't care how good a shot you are with your AR when your facing a drone fired missile guided by a satellite 300 miles up and piloted by someone a 1000 miles away.

Its great to get this all out .. Blog Therapy ... but you will find that things are either not as bad as you think or much worse than you thought ... but in either case your ability to change the actual situation is minimal; all you can change is perception, and only yours at that.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 5:01 PM  

The problem with a modern Civil War 2.0, as I see it, is logistics. The US military, which is under the direct command of the President (THE FEDS) and employed (paid) by THE FEDS, also happens to have some really, really advanced, expensive pieces of war machinery.

In the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, we didn't have tanks. We didn't have fighter jets or bombers. We didn't have nukes. We didn't have sniper rifles, machine guns (although primitive gatling guns may have been used), grenades... the list goes on.

Considering that much of that is the property of the federal government, how exactly do you expect to overcome these logistical difficulties?

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 5:02 PM  

"The ability of a militia raising and fighting the government is not practical or even possible in this age."

Tell that to Hezbollah.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 5:02 PM  

"Knoxville's main street is Gay Street. Enough said."

No... the main street in Knoxville is The Strip...and its not called Gay Street.

Anonymous Gx1080 November 14, 2012 5:02 PM  

@Tom O.

Damn, that's some "End of History" level bullshit there.

Question for all the Neo-Keynesians like Tom over here:

How many of you are disposed to go to war for getting other countries to buy off the US debt? Because that's what will happen.

Note: "Nobody will go to war against the US, we are awesome and will kick their asses!" is not an answer.

Anonymous Gx1080 November 14, 2012 5:03 PM  

PS: Don't whine when the austerity roll start coming.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 5:04 PM  

HH..."And in order to sign the petition you have to sign up at the web site -- so now all the traitors/secessionist/ rebels have identified yourselves it should take not time at all for the men in black SUVs to round you up and provide you with an all expense paid vacation to Guantanamo. :)"

He He. You have a problem with enemy identification it seems. These are not the rebels. The rebs are watching, not signing a petition.

HH..."Part of the problem is that no matter how bad the US gets, everywhere else is pretty much worse -- where would you move that would be better ? Russia, China, South America, Europe, North Dakota ? seems like the choices are limited."

No sir, that is not the problem at all. Rebels do not intend to go anywhere. There is no place to run and no place to hide. Either we stay here alive or we stay here dead. And, for your benefit, the choice is not between Here and Somewhere else. The choice is between survival or extinction. My Scot-Irish relatives understand that choice very well and you can expect them to make it.


Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 5:05 PM  

"Modern warfare has long since surpassed running around in the woods with a rifle. They can see you and kill you before you can see or hear them... don't care how good a shot you are with your AR when your facing a drone fired missile guided by a satellite 300 miles up and piloted by someone a 1000 miles away. "

I see you're impressed with the US military. That's cute. It shows you haven't actually bothered paying attention.

Look at its track record against urban warefare tactics. Hit and run.

It sucks. Its never successfully dealt with 4Gen Warefare anytime... or anywhere. 4Gen Warfare on the streets of America would be totally disruptive... and it would render virtually all of America's high tech toys useless.

Anonymous Anonymous November 14, 2012 5:05 PM  

Likewise I expect little good to come from secession. There would absolutely be war, absolutely be demographic infighting, and borders would absoultely redrawn.

The Soviet Union broke apart without a war. If FedGov goes bankrupt and stops paying people I would actually expect something along these lines. If FedGov goes bankrupt and forces hyperinflation, I would expect secession/war.

It doesn't have to be a long or bloody war. One of the states just needs to seize the nukes in its borders and let the central government know it's ready to use them. That would pretty much force an end to the conflict in favor of the secessionists right there. An event which would trigger secession would likely make this easy, i.e. plenty of officers ready to help their home states.

I find that the idea of secession resulting in new more prospereous republics a pipe dream. What is to stop what is happening now in America from happening in the new state nations?

Here is where we agree. I'm not convinced that any of the state populations have learned the right lessons from U.S. history, and are prepared to take the necessary steps to insure it doesn't repeat.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering November 14, 2012 5:08 PM  

"Knoxville's main street is Gay Street. Enough said."

No... the main street in Knoxville is The Strip...and its not called Gay Street.

Okay, Nate, whatever. The Strip is Cumberland Avenue which runs right outside of UT. I went there; I stumbled down the Strip many nights in self-induced stupors. Those days are over.

Gay Street is downtown, and as I remember is a main street in Knoxville.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 5:08 PM  

Noah B. wrote:
"Tell that to Hezbollah."

Israel is holding back with Hezbollah. If Israel was permitted to storm them, I'm pretty sure it would be a very one-sided massacre leaving thousands or hundreds of thousands of Hezbollah scumbags dead and maybe a few tens or hundreds of Israeli soldiers dead/wounded.

Hezbollah is, to Israel, much like what anklebiters are to VD.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 5:13 PM  

Swords make great holders for toasting marshmallows.

Anonymous Sexual Chocolate Imperion November 14, 2012 5:13 PM  

re: naval blockade attempt

It has to do more with simple logistics. We have three carrier groups in the Persian Gulf at this time. We have more combat ships in maintenance than actively deployed. The U.S. Naval fleet is straining for parts and necessary supplies. The U.S. govt has less than 300 ships to police the entire world. At one time, they had ~600.

The larger factor, is cognitive dissonance among the crews ordered to perform the task. In little time there will be mutinies. Not to mention, if it actually came down to official Texas independence, it possesses the largest Army base in the Union, and considerable combat air components. It would not be pretty. I don't think D.C. has the balls. What, it will threaten to nuke Houston? Get Perry and Dewhurst out of office, and call D.C.'s bluff...

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 5:14 PM  

Soga...."In the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, we didn't have tanks. We didn't have fighter jets or bombers. We didn't have nukes. We didn't have sniper rifles, machine guns (although primitive gatling guns may have been used), grenades... the list goes on."

Have you learned nothing the past 50 years? Wars are not fought with weapons, they are fought by men. If weapons were enough, the Soviets would still be in Afganistan and we would not be withdrawing with our ass hanging out. Men can adapt to fighting, regardless of whether they use sniper rifles or spears. One side has the will to stay in the fight and the other leaves.

As for weapons, I can do more damage and kill more people with a box of 32 wooden matches than you can do with the most sophisticated weapons....especially given the rules of engagement the US military operate under. My weapon costs a nickle and requires no satellite, no electricity, and no fuel. We do not need to fight like the redcoats in order the win and I seriously doubt the rest of the country is willing to fight another war (or any war) to keep the southerners under their jurisdiction.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 5:16 PM  

Nate wrote:
"I see you're impressed with the US military. That's cute. It shows you haven't actually bothered paying attention.

Look at its track record against urban warefare tactics. Hit and run.

It sucks. Its never successfully dealt with 4Gen Warefare anytime... or anywhere. 4Gen Warfare on the streets of America would be totally disruptive... and it would render virtually all of America's high tech toys useless."


Explain to me, then, how we managed to wipe most of the insurgents from Iraq when we were going through the cities clearing out insurgent strongholds. There are holdouts, yes, but remember, these are people fighting for a religion, what they believe to be their eternal fates. Secessionists would be fighting for something far less... a worldly goal. Plus, most of the secessionists are whites (who are generally not that educated, I might add) do have a proclivity toward forming monolithic hierarchies.

With Robert E. Lee captured, the war ended.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 5:17 PM  

Question for all the Neo-Keynesians like Tom over here

Not a Neo-Keynesian, but I recognize what's coming.

Look. People went to war because they felt that they had the most money to gain from conquering territory. Now they realize technology is where the real money's at. All of the countries experiencing civil war and revolutions are dirt-poor shit-hut countries like Afganistan and Zimbabwe.

Study this proverb: "A party gives laughter, wine gives happiness, but money gives everything!" (Ecclesiastes 10:19)

As long as people realize there's more money to be made in technology than in war, that's what they're going to put their resources into.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 5:21 PM  

DonReynolds
"Have you learned nothing the past 50 years? Wars are not fought with weapons, they are fought by men. If weapons were enough, the Soviets would still be in Afganistan and we would not be withdrawing with our ass hanging out. Men can adapt to fighting, regardless of whether they use sniper rifles or spears. One side has the will to stay in the fight and the other leaves."

Afghanistan is a terrible example. We don't even know why we're still there. Iraq is a better example, as it happens that we had actual objectives involving the elimination of insurgents and securing the cities from further insurgent threats. The insurgents weren't popping up like whack-a-moles as in Afghanistan. They were tied to cities. we wiped the floor with the Iraqi insurgents, albeit taking years to do so.

An American Civil War 2.0 would resemble Iraq much more than it would resemble Afghanistan. Rules of engagement? Somehow, I think liberals have always entertained the idea of ruthlessly executing conservatives. It's their wet dreams.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 5:22 PM  

Anonymous: "One of the states just needs to seize the nukes in its borders and let the central government know it's ready to use them."

Bzzt. Wrong answer. Even if they did manage to reprogram the launch codes, FedGov would blow them up in their silos before said state could even attempt to use them. Ask the citizens in that state if they would like to deal with the fallout.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 5:23 PM  

As long as people realize there's more money to be made in technology than in war, that's what they're going to put their resources into.

That's a false premise. a) Technology is a profit center of war. b) Profit margins on general technology are dwindling.

Technology is in stagnation and decline.

Anonymous WinstonWebb November 14, 2012 5:25 PM  

I think liberals have always entertained the idea of ruthlessly executing conservatives. It's their wet dreams.

This is definitely a true statement. However, they would never consider getting their own hands dirty to do it. They need thugs.

During times of civil unrest, are thugs more apt to favor the side of authority or chaos?

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 5:29 PM  

FedGov would blow them up in their silos before said state could even attempt to use them. Ask the citizens in that state if they would like to deal with the fallout.

That's actually not practical. Most existing missile silos can't be detonated remotely. It would require an air strike, and any state that fosters control over a missle silo can foster air defenses.

I'm not saying the Feds wouldn't succeed at taking back a silo, just that nuking it outright isn't as easy as that. Furthermore, the fallout from an underground explosion would be relatively minimal. It would be more akin to a Ft. Sumter moment than armageddon.

Then the feds have six bullets in the chamber and 25 enemies to fight.

Don't get me wrong: I'd bet on the fed takeover. But it would be a costly one, not cheap and easy on the balance sheet.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 5:30 PM  

For those who are interested in the American Revolution....How many militia men does it take to start a shooting war with the world's greatest military power? The shooting started at the North Bridge at Concord with 500 men defeating three companies of the King's men, who were forced to withdraw to Boston.

September 11th was carried out by 19 terrorists armed with box cutters. It seems it does not take very many at all.

Blogger The Aardvark November 14, 2012 5:34 PM  

Tell that to the Italians, Irish, Germans, Russians, Jews, Chinese, etc. who came to America and melted in quite nicely.

The fact that we still refer to them by those nationalities says otherwise.

Anonymous JartStar November 14, 2012 5:36 PM  

It sucks. Its never successfully dealt with 4Gen Warefare anytime... or anywhere. 4Gen Warfare on the streets of America would be totally disruptive... and it would render virtually all of America's high tech toys useless.

It's not like they don't know this and haven't known it for close to 20 years. The military has built and continues to build mock cities which for now approximate the Middle East, but likely will approximate Western cities soon.

Assuming the 2033 date is correct I'd say the US military will be very well versed in urban warfare with partisans and will have extensive plans to quell civil unrest. You'll probably be able to walk in the shade everywhere due to the number of drones.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 5:41 PM  

WinstonWebb wrote:
"During times of civil unrest, are thugs more apt to favor the side of authority or chaos?"

Do thugs generally vote Democrat or Republican? Which side would be the bigger useful idiots for La Raza to exploit?

Anonymous Just Mark November 14, 2012 5:41 PM  

The Federal Government at this point would prevent any government from voting for secession just as they did with Md in 1861 and Illinois and Indiana in 1863. Anyone know what Madison said about secession to New England during the war 0f 1812? Since he wrote the constitution those arguments would seem to be highly relevant.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 5:41 PM  

@Daniel

(a) is true but irrelevant. Countries like the USA have gotten into many wars, but they're all with 3rd world countries, and poor people make just as good of a target for war and technological showcase as rich people, with the benefit of not harming trade or firing back. What matters is that the USA is not going to go to war with the EU or China, which essentially means world peace and no harm to the balance of powers.

(b) is false. Technology manufacturing and hardware are making a comeback. See: http://paulgraham.com/hw.html. And with the rise of 3d printing and automation, we can expect to see more competition and more businesses investing in exactly that.

Also, the New Rich has no problem with liberal government and welfare. It's mainly dinosaurs like the Koch brothers and Vox's dad who have such a problem. As the high-IQ start-up individuals gain wealth, they'll be more than happy to provide the populace with money to buy their technologies. Everyone will be well-fed, and thus no revolution will happen.

Anonymous Kickass November 14, 2012 5:48 PM  

I see Tad is still slamming his head into the wall and screaming "Take That Vox!".

I have nothing to add here. Quite literally I have a front row seat to a collapse of sorts right here right now.

I am prefering to think that God is slaying the Idol of America so that we will look to Him as our only refuge. Because truly, that is all we have. And that is good.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 5:50 PM  

I see Tad is still slamming his head into the wall and screaming "Take That Vox!".

Not Tad either. And if you looked at my earlier posts, you'd see that I take offense to much of Tad's views.

You people seem to forget that doomsday predictions are, in general, extremely unlikely. That means that you're always better off assuming that the worst won't happen, rather than they will.

Blogger ajw308 November 14, 2012 5:50 PM  

but what makes you think it would be all that difficult for the Navy to blockade Texas?
From what I've seen, the Feds can't stop anything from crossing the Mexican border. They may be able to block the ports, but that'll hardly isolate Texas.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 5:51 PM  

Soga..."Afghanistan is a terrible example. We don't even know why we're still there."

We are in Afganistan to defeat the Taliban, so that little girls can go to school and homosexuals can bugger each other without fear of being executed. I agree. Not much of a reason.

Soga..."Iraq is a better example, as it happens that we had actual objectives involving the elimination of insurgents and securing the cities from further insurgent threats. The insurgents weren't popping up like whack-a-moles as in Afghanistan. They were tied to cities. we wiped the floor with the Iraqi insurgents, albeit taking years to do so."

The USA cannot tolerate cities like Los Angeles, Pittsburg, Boston, or Cincinatti being reduced to rubble like Falluja and the surviving population reduced to 30 percent of the pre-battle levels. Nor would it prevail if the same thing happened to Houston, Atlanta, Memphis, Miami, or Nashville. Such death and destruction would only stiffen the necks of the survivors.

I seriously doubt domestic conflict in the USA to be anything like Iraq. More likely, you would see Northern Ireland, where no amount of tanks, cruise missiles or apache helicopters would make a bit of difference. Never expect your opponent to fight in ways that give you any advantage in battle. Expect them to hit where it hurts, in ways you never imagined, when you least expect it.


Blogger ajw308 November 14, 2012 5:53 PM  

The ability of a militia raising and fighting the government is not practical or even possible in this age. Modern warfare has long since surpassed running around in the woods with a rifle. They can see you and kill you before you can see or hear them... don't care how good a shot you are with your AR when your facing a drone fired missile guided by a satellite 300 miles up and piloted by someone a 1000 miles away.
Apparently HH thinks we've won in Afghanistan years ago.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 14, 2012 5:54 PM  

Daniel: "That's actually not practical. Most existing missile silos can't be detonated remotely. It would require an air strike, and any state that fosters control over a missle silo can foster air defenses."

Agree that it would take an airstrike, as that was what I had in mind. The fallout wouldn't come from a nuclear detonation, but rather radiation being spread from a conventional detonation spreading the material in the warhead. Also agree that said fallout would be limited; that's why I noted "citizens in that state", though it could drift over neighboring borders if it was close enough.

Disagree that the rebels in said state could stop it, since it could just as easily be a cruise missile fired from a few states away as a stealth attack plane from close up. Since our missile defense systems are on external borders and designed for incoming missiles, I'm not sure what air defenses you think they'd have to stop it internally.

Anonymous jay c November 14, 2012 5:56 PM  

I think John Ross has already hit on the revolutionary method most likely to succeed in America.

Anonymous DonReynolds November 14, 2012 6:00 PM  

Given the gutless and spinless vermin we have in Washington today, beholden as they are to their wealthy masters on Wall Street, I would expect there will be no domestic conflict in the USA.

It would simply be too expensive to contemplate and NO, there is no one would would want to pay for it, except those losing their chains. Independence is a strong motivator, much stronger than the urge to rule over those who chaffe and rebel under the yoke.

The thirst for freedom is much stronger than the desire to enslave the unwilling.

Anonymous Kickass November 14, 2012 6:00 PM  

Tom buddy, I was talking about Tad. He has been hanging around a lot lately. He has been a bunch of fun and I am holding out hope for him.

And as for "you people" regarding doomsday predictions, according to the Bible doom does come. Feel free to bet against that if you would like.

Anonymous Kickass November 14, 2012 6:03 PM  

According to the show Revolution, it is the millitia that is evil and the government just sort of dissapates.

Also, only women are strong enough to protect us. And they are also against violence, of any kind, unless they do it..they they were right and they looked hot doing it.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 6:04 PM  

"They can see you and kill you before you can see or hear them... don't care how good a shot you are with your AR when your facing a drone fired missile guided by a satellite 300 miles up and piloted by someone a 1000 miles away. "

You miss the point,they can't kill freedom or the spirit of it, and America is a damn big place. The cowards won't raise a finger. They are looking for a fight, but can't find one or a reason. We win.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 6:05 PM  

DonReynolds wrote:
"The USA cannot tolerate cities like Los Angeles, Pittsburg, Boston, or Cincinatti being reduced to rubble like Falluja and the surviving population reduced to 30 percent of the pre-battle levels. Nor would it prevail if the same thing happened to Houston, Atlanta, Memphis, Miami, or Nashville. Such death and destruction would only stiffen the necks of the survivors."

Fair enough. That is, if the secessionists are smart enough to covertly HQ in a place like Houston; a liberal city virtually completely surrounded by conservative territory. Effectively using liberals as human shields. The effect would be amplified if blacks or Mexicans are used as the human shields. Liberals probably wouldn't mind killing a few liberal whites as collateral damage, but touch their black sacred cow or La Raza? They won't stand for it.

But are the secessionists, or more importantly, their would-be leadership, going to be that smart?

DonReynolds wrote:
"I seriously doubt domestic conflict in the USA to be anything like Iraq. More likely, you would see Northern Ireland, where no amount of tanks, cruise missiles or apache helicopters would make a bit of difference. Never expect your opponent to fight in ways that give you any advantage in battle. Expect them to hit where it hurts, in ways you never imagined, when you least expect it."

Just as the Union obliterated many Southern cities in the Civil War, what makes you think the Feds would be so reluctant to demolish a few red-county cities? And they have the toys to do it better than in the 1860s. If you're hiding in a complex of some sort in your dearly beloved city, you better hope the building can withstand a carpet bombing or a few artillery shells.

Broken glass? That's ok, we're a service-based economy anyway.

Anonymous John November 14, 2012 6:10 PM  

Yes, please! Give a lame duck President an excuse to expand enact an emergency expansion of the Executive.

Blogger ajw308 November 14, 2012 6:11 PM  

Outlaw, you're missing the point. The cowards don't do the fighting, they send people to fight.

Now, just suppose someone wanted to turn the US into a 3rd world country. What would do that faster than to have our military and our patriots out of uniform destroy each other?

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 6:20 PM  

"What would do that faster than to have our military and our patriots out of uniform destroy each other?"

Good luck with that. I'm not that dense.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 6:24 PM  

according to the Bible doom does come.

Yup! And you know how it's going to come? While people are saying, "Peace and safety," (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Whenever destruction comes in the Bible, it is always when it seems the least likely. It was just like that in the days of Lot. Everyone was happy, well-fed, secure. People were planting, planning, and building. There was progress and wealth for everyone. And on that day when Lot left, fire fell from the heavens and destroyed them all.

Anonymous Kickass November 14, 2012 6:26 PM  

And there was always someone saying it was coming like say Noah, Jerimiah, Joseph...you know, those crazy guys.

Anonymous Ackroyd November 14, 2012 6:27 PM  

Seceding because you oppose the lawful re-election of the candidate you didn't vote for, who cannot run for a third term. Treason or idiocy?

Anonymous Lawful Neutral November 14, 2012 6:30 PM  

@Tom O.

OK, stop being so coy; let's hear it. You obviously have some great insight or theory you want to share with us, so spill it. I'm genuinely curious. WHAT is the US evolving into? WHY is it evolving into that?

Blogger The Aardvark November 14, 2012 6:38 PM  

Obama's re-election is less the reason, more the trigger.

Anonymous Fernando Garcia November 14, 2012 6:42 PM  

Seceding because you oppose the lawful re-election of the candidate you didn't vote for, who cannot run for a third term. Treason or idiocy?

It isn't just Obama. Liberty minded folks know, or are coming to realize, that their government is a bastard child to the constitution and their liberty.

And while Obama may have been "lawfully re-elected," he, and past presidents and congress have NOT faithfully executed and defended our constitution. So really, who are the traitors?

I'd say we are coming to this moment: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

Blogger Logos November 14, 2012 6:42 PM  

The constitutional compact is breached and thus is no longer binding, as the federal government has exceeded its enumerated powers in countless ways (and no, the Supreme Court cannot alter the Constitution, since it is merely a branch of the federal government and inferior to the Constitution -only an amendment or full-blown convention under Article V can alter the Constitution). Time to go our separate ways.

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 6:42 PM  

"Seceding because you oppose the lawful re-election of the candidate you didn't vote for, who cannot run for a third term. Treason or idiocy?"

If you think it's just about the president being someone that many people don't like, you're an idiot. Obama's reelection in itself is inconsequential. But the political class has disposed of even the pretense that they abide by the same rule of law as the rest of us. They make up crazy laws behind closed doors so that they and their cronies can profit from it by robbing the rest of us. They have shown no hesitation to infringe upon Americans' liberty in every conceivable manner so long as it keeps the money keeps coming in. People are becoming widely aware of this.

And I will say it as many times as it takes to get even one of your synapses to fire -- they're openly declaring the right to kill, imprison, or torture Americans any time they see fit.

What do they have to do to make you mad? Take away your cable TV? Delay the release of the new iPhone?

Anonymous zen0 November 14, 2012 6:42 PM  

Ackroyd November 14, 2012 6:27 PM

Seceding because you oppose the lawful re-election of the candidate you didn't vote for, who cannot run for a third term. Treason or idiocy?


Treason and idiocy was re-elected, Ackroyd. Quit being dense.

Blogger Logos November 14, 2012 6:43 PM  

I actually recommend against signing the petition, though, because it presupposes that the federal government has any say in the matter. Don't concede this crucial point.

Anonymous Ackroyd November 14, 2012 6:45 PM  

Sure, and if Jeb Bush is sworn in on January 2017, you will humbly petition for re-admission.

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 6:47 PM  

@zen0

Great call on the election results, BTW. You nailed it.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 6:48 PM  

WaterBoy - I misread your scenario. I think we agree. Where I disagree is that all federal defenses would remain in federal hands in such a scenario. I simply don't think they would.

Just as it isn't inconceivable that identity subsets within the federal military would break away on ideological or ethnic grounds, I think it is very possible that you'd have fractions within the military wings. After all, West Point educated generals on both sides of the War of 1860. I see no reason why there wouldn't be some military mutiny with secessionist sympathies.

A lot? Probably not. But enough to make nuke detonation on "homesoil" a bad outcome for the Fed sympathizers?

Hell yes. Mizzou still hates those Jayhawkers, even if all they are doing right now is playing basketball.

I very much doubt that a detonated silo in Minot, for example, would exactly endear the oil-rich Dakotans to their Federal betters.

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 6:48 PM  

"Sure, and if Jeb Bush is sworn in on January 2017, you will humbly petition for re-admission."

No.

Blogger Logos November 14, 2012 6:49 PM  

I love the backlash -- threatening to strip people of citizenship and deport them? Please don't throw us in that briar patch; we adore being robbed at gunpoint on a daily basis to support an illicit welfare/warfare state.

In all seriousness, there is little danger that such drastic measures will be taken. Quite the opposite, as the feds are throwing up more and more barriers to stop people from escaping. Maybe soon they'll drop the pretense and borrow some bricks and mortar from Berlin to do the job right. Trust me, they want us all staying right here in the slaughterhouse so they can feast. Besides, the feds cannot strip someone of his citizenship without his consent, though I might be reverting to a quaint belief that some scrap of the rule of law still exists.

But let's think for a moment about the twisted nature of those who actually signed this retaliatory petition. I doubt they have lifted a finger to call for the deportation of illegal aliens swarming across the borders and consuming our resources, yet they demand this against actual citizens merely for exercising free speech. I have a better idea. Why don't you all deport yourselves to a nation whose political philosophy is more in line with your own -- Myanmar, perhaps -- and leave America to real Americans who refuse to tolerate tyranny regardless of how popular it is.

It's becoming clear that there's not enough room in this land for both of us. Many of us believe we should partition the land to go our separate ways. If that's not in the cards, then the statists among you should heed the words of your hero, Abraham Lincoln, who warned that one side or the other would have to prevail: "A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the States."

Those of us who love liberty are willing to fight for it. Can all of you who despise liberty say the same?

Anonymous Ackroyd November 14, 2012 6:50 PM  

So you're saying if Mittens had been elected, there'd still be this talk of secession? Sure.

It's all about the black man with the funny name.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 6:51 PM  

Ackroyd
Sure, and if Jeb Bush is sworn in on January 2017, you will humbly petition for re-admission.

Does that dunce cap come with a head inside it, tiny?

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 6:51 PM  

Sure, and if Jeb Bush is sworn in on January 2017, you will humbly petition for re-admission.

Had to laugh. New around these parts, huh?

Anonymous WinstonWebb November 14, 2012 6:52 PM  

Seceding because you oppose the lawful re-election of the candidate you didn't vote for, who cannot run for a third term. Treason or idiocy?

Neither, as the premise of your question is incorrect.

Seceding because you realize that the group that dutifully re-elected (yet another) member of the bi-party ruling faction has nothing in common with you, your peers, your culture, or your values...and never will.

Anonymous Daniel November 14, 2012 6:53 PM  

It's all about the black man with the funny name.

This has nothing to do Rod Smart, and even if it did, who cares?

Anonymous Stilicho November 14, 2012 6:58 PM  

Ackroyd: why would you want to keep the secessionists? Of what use are they or their land to you?

Anonymous Noah B. November 14, 2012 6:59 PM  

@Ackroyd

Based on that logic, the American Revolution should have never happened. As I recall, King George was white. Or are you trying to say that he was just passing?

Anonymous Dan in Tx November 14, 2012 6:59 PM  

As already stated, the talk of the U.S. military's superior hardware/technology making resistance futile is a sign of buying into the "Iraq was a raging success" propaganda. Also as already stated, "the enemy" (in this case those of us opposing the empire) is not going to agree to fight on your terms. So what would we possibly see (since we're throwing around possible scenarios here)? I'm thinking like in our middle east adventures, the military would roll in and take the cities almost immediately and D.C would declare victory. Then the random sniper attacks and bombings begin. Day in and day out, new reports of "isolated" attacks on American forces here and there. A considerable portion of the rest of the world, sick of decades of American bullying, begin pouring munitions and supplies over the Mexican border, figuring another front for the Americans to fight on makes it all the better for them. Then secessionist fighters begin infiltrating non secessionist states and blowing things up in their areas. Yeah, the demand to force the secessionists to stay in the Union would possibly fade quite quickly then.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 6:59 PM  

WHAT is the US evolving into? WHY is it evolving into that?

The USA is evolving into the first post-human society. Machines will evolve to the point where they'll provide us with everything, and government will ensure that people get the wealth they don't deserve. The allocation problem of command economies, although historically insurmountable for humans, will not be a problem, because there will be so much stuff. One percent efficiency rate of a shitton is still a shitton.

The proof that it is evolving into this is the shift from K selection (conservative politics) to r selection (liberal politics). r politics occurs only when there's mass resource abundance, and thus the presence of r politics in Europe, Asia, and the USA indicates that there's huge resource abundance. As any critic of Malthus can tell you, this occurred because technology works.

It is evolving into this because people are figuring out that all service jobs can be formalized as basic pattern recognition and database searching, all technology that Google currently has. 3D printers and other tools can make products way better and faster than humans can. And however bad the US debt crisis currently is, it's still better off than almost anywhere else, and those who think China will start some global conquest are laughably wrong and fail to understand China's introverted culture.

Lastly, the most damning reason as to why this won't be interrupted is because there's too much fun to go around. Nobody's going to start a revolution when video games and cheap food are abundant, because people can't be assed. The reason why violence is at a 48 year low is because technology is the opium of the masses. Cheap food, cheap porn, and cheap games go along way to keeping otherwise violent and vibrant youths content.

The immigrant capacity is stable, because most Mexicans and third-worlders get used to the benefits and keep to themselves. So even though they're obviously not as good capital as the WASPs they're replacing, human capital is not the limiting reactant, so we can feel free to continue in our current pattern.

I'd also love it if liberals were wrong, because they are all faces desperately in need of a fist.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 7:00 PM  

Stilicho wrote:
"Ackroyd: why would you want to keep the secessionists? Of what use are they or their land to you?"

Someone has to pay the bill on Social Security and taxes. There is the inflationary option, but considering the "fiscal cliff" on which the MSM has been yapping nonstop about lately, I don't think they want to do that.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 7:03 PM  

What really confuses me is people separating the "military" from patriots. I wrote a letter to the editor in support of the second amendment in the Wichita Falls Times and Record News. I got a phone call from a soldier at Shepard Air force base in Wichita falls inviting me to come shoot with the men in a friendly competition. I packed up my AR back then and went, they provided all the ammo, I didn't spend a dime on a bullet though I was ready to.

To say that Soldiers are against patriots is to say soldiers are not patriots, I assure you they are patriots.

Met many more good patriots when I worked at Fort Hood.

Why do you think the government puts Vets on the terrorist watch list?

Anonymous Anonymous November 14, 2012 7:08 PM  

Soga said:
"Afghanistan is a terrible example. We don't even know why we're still there. Iraq is a better example, as it happens that we had actual objectives involving the elimination of insurgents and securing the cities from further insurgent threats. The insurgents weren't popping up like whack-a-moles as in Afghanistan. They were tied to cities. we wiped the floor with the Iraqi insurgents, albeit taking years to do so."

Perhaps someone can correct my ignorance, but I thought the US didn't so much defeat the Iraqis as pay militants to stop fighting each other. By the way, weren't most Sunnis/Shias ethnically cleansed from mixed neighborhoods depending on which ethnicity had more power?

Did the USA defeat an Iraqi insurgency or simply ride out a bloody Civil war that vested most of Iraq's power in the hands of Shias and Iran?

Anonymous NW_Potato_Head November 14, 2012 7:09 PM  

Soga said:
"Afghanistan is a terrible example. We don't even know why we're still there. Iraq is a better example, as it happens that we had actual objectives involving the elimination of insurgents and securing the cities from further insurgent threats. The insurgents weren't popping up like whack-a-moles as in Afghanistan. They were tied to cities. we wiped the floor with the Iraqi insurgents, albeit taking years to do so."

Perhaps someone can correct my ignorance, but I thought the US didn't so much defeat the Iraqis as pay militants to stop fighting each other. By the way, weren't most Sunnis/Shias ethnically cleansed from mixed neighborhoods depending on which ethnicity had more power?

Did the USA defeat an Iraqi insurgency or simply ride out a bloody Civil war that vested most of Iraq's power in the hands of Shias and Iran?

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 7:11 PM  

Outlaw X wrote:
"What really confuses me is people separating the 'military' from patriots."

Logistics. Veterans may get to take home their AR rifles, but where do they park the tank? Many weapons manufacturers have long-standing contracts with the divisions of the formal organization of the US Military. Who do you want to do business with if you sold weapons: the guys that can print unlimited money, or the guys who give IOUs?

Secessionists would be at a huge logistical disadvantage. Even if they tried to mint their own money, it won't be recognized as acceptable world currency at least until the secessionist cause seemed to be on the verge of winning the war.

As much as the world hates us, they know that at least with the current form of our government, we are turning into a third world shithole where they can send their undesirables. We're becoming the toilet of the world, and the world wants to take a crap. Supporting the secessionists would be like shooting the plumber coming to install a toilet in your house.

Anonymous Tom O. November 14, 2012 7:12 PM  

We're becoming the toilet of the world

More like a whore, to be honest.

Anonymous Anonymous November 14, 2012 7:19 PM  

Bzzt. Wrong answer. Even if they did manage to reprogram the launch codes, FedGov would blow them up in their silos before said state could even attempt to use them.

Talk about a wrong answer.

A) Who said anything about missiles, silos, and launch codes? A secessionist state would seize the warheads. They are relatively small and mobile. Once they are physically in hand, nothing (i.e. codes) can stop them from going boom. There are plenty of them in storage since a good portion of the U.S. deterrent consists of bombers.

B) Once seized, they would be dispersed. If a dozen were seized, they would go in a dozen different directions on a dozen different vehicles, civilian in appearance and lead lined. To destroy such a target you first have to identify and track it. Then you have to get assets to it against rebel resistance, and do so fast enough that they don't hand off the weapon and evade your tracking. Good luck.

C) If the Federal government could not confidently locate and destroy all missing weapons within 24-30 hours, the war would be over. Why? In that amount of time you can drive from the mid west states to the coasts. At 30 hours a secessionist leader could announce to the world that weapons were in place in Boston, NYC, DC, etc, and demand a peaceful secession with global recognition of the new nation state. It wouldn't even matter if the weapons were actually in place or not, as long as the central government doesn't know. The U.S. would be in no position to refuse secession at that point.

Note: I'm not hoping for this or any type of civil war. But this would be a likely scenario if the SHTF. The terrorist version of this scenario is why the Bush administration freaked out over the possibility of WMDs in the middle east. (As stupid and inept as he was, I understand the freak out. This is not a scenario you can defend against once your enemy has a weapon in play.)

Ask the citizens in that state if they would like to deal with the fallout.

A conventional strike on a silo might contaminate a few acres.

Blogger JACIII November 14, 2012 7:20 PM  

"The USA is evolving into the first post-human society. Machines will evolve to the point where they'll provide us with everything, and government will ensure that people get the wealth they don't deserve. "

Someone has been watching too much Star Trek. Or Terminator. Or both.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 7:20 PM  

NW_Potato_Head
"Did the USA defeat an Iraqi insurgency or simply ride out a bloody Civil war that vested most of Iraq's power in the hands of Shias and Iran?"

A bit of both. I seem to recall reading reports of Iraqi cities actually being (mostly) secured. But I wouldn't be surprised if attrition had something to do with it.

All the same, consider the end results between Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq is a lot calmer and more stable than Afghanistan. If Iraq is a ticking time bomb, then Afghanistan is a bomb that is already exploding... repeatedly.

Iraq had a much tighter infrastructure than Afghanistan. Iraq resembles a more typical urban setting than Afghanistan. Yet more reason the American Civil War 2.0 would resemble Iraq more than Afghanistan.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 7:30 PM  

"it won't be recognized as acceptable world currency at least until the secessionist cause seemed to be on the verge of winning the war."

Soga

Explain to me again how this has a damn thing to do with military and patriots killing one another (which are one and the same), which was your original claim? Now you change the subject to foreign enemies? How they would react? Are you drunk or just stupid?

Anonymous Ackroyd November 14, 2012 7:34 PM  

Point 1: There'd be little or none of this secessionist talk if Romney had won.

Point 2: Obama received at least 24 percent of the vote in every state; secession is something the states need to vote on before they proceed.

Point 3: Secession wouldn't succeed. You think your guns can beat our tanks and jet planes? Think again.

Democrats suffered a bitterer defeat in 2000, and sucked it up. You can, too.

Anonymous AXCrom November 14, 2012 7:36 PM  

""The USA is evolving into the first post-human society. Machines will evolve to the point where they'll provide us with everything, and government will ensure that people get the wealth they don't deserve. "

Someone has been watching too much Star Trek. Or Terminator. Or both."


I actually suspect he's a Zeitgeist person... They believe that machines will free humans from labor and permit us to be free to improve ourselves in whatever fashion we desire. The problem is that most people living in the real Federation would be using the replicators to pump out a steady diet of beer, cheese fries and Twinkies, and the holodeck would instantly be renamed the pornodeck.

"Computer, run program 'Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Model FuckFest IX'..."

Blogger john November 14, 2012 7:40 PM  

Just have to say this about logistics: Where exactly is the U.S. government going to get it's tanks and weapons? All the manufacturing has gone overseas. And unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the power grid and water treatment plants here are the soft underbelly of the U.S. infrastructure. Tell me that there aren't smart patriots working in power plants right now who could screw things up royally for TPTB in Washington. And while I'm at it, I can't tell you how easy it is for a motivated enlisted man to supersync a satellite: there goes your GPS. Bye bye to your drones. A few strategic hits to infrastructure, less than 100 people in key, but "low-level" positions in the military and utilities and this thing becomes a much more even fight...

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 7:40 PM  

Outlaw X wrote:
"Explain to me again how this has a damn thing to do with military and patriots killing one another (which are one and the same), which was your original claim? Now you change the subject to foreign enemies? How they would react? Are you drunk or just stupid?"

When did I mention foreign enemies? No, you're missing the point. Now I have to spell it out for you:

How are the military and the "patriots" one and the same? The military is the OFFICIAL martial organization of the federal government under the command of the President of the United States. The very same United States from which the aforementioned "patriots" would be seceding. That OFFICIAL martial organization is the one with whom manufacturers of war-related goods have deals and contracts.

The secessionists would either have to use USDs, which they most likely wouldn't be able to mint (maybe counterfeit, but then the Feds will just change their minting methods). Consequently, unless they minted their own cash, I don't see secessionists as having the financial means to persuade outsiders into supporting their cause vs the government of the United States. And even if they could mint their own currency, there is absolutely no reason the rest of the world would be interested in trading in that currency unless it looked like the secessionist cause was on the verge of winning the war and actually becoming a legitimate nation.

Again... do you sell to the guy with unlimited money or the guy with only IOUs? Think slower and more carefully this time.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 7:50 PM  

"Again... do you sell to the guy with unlimited money or the guy with only IOUs? Think slower and more carefully this time."

OK I will, I'll take the guys with the oil and natural gas as well as human labor over the men who put numbers into computers. Park the damn tanks and guns and let's get about our business.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 8:00 PM  

Outlaw X wrote:
"OK I will, I'll take the guys with the oil and natural gas as well as human labor over the men who put numbers into computers. Park the damn tanks and guns and let's get about our business."

Think again. You're a corporation fat cat. The men who put numbers into computers are the ones that make you the money. You want that nice Filipino island for when your corporation sinks and you abandon your employees to collect a nice fat pension check at their expense, don't you? When you're done, that island will have your name on it followed by a trademark sign.

I understand where you're coming from, but sadly, that is not how the world operates.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 14, 2012 8:02 PM  

...liberals seldom speak the truth. Their very name for themselves is a lie.

One of the best comments I've read all year.

But, ah, just don't let it go to your head Vox...

They also aren't required by law to respond to these petitions.

Not to mention that liberals are always willing to ignore a law they find temporarily inconvenient anyway.

Anyone know what Madison said about secession to New England during the war 0f 1812? Since he wrote the constitution those arguments would seem to be highly relevant.

Boy, talk about quaint. I think the Constitution is a great blueprint. It would be an even better one if we were still using it. But sadly, we're a post-constitutional nation at this point. Things Madison said may or may not be wise, but they are no longer relevant.

Seceding because you oppose the lawful re-election of the candidate you didn't vote for, who cannot run for a third term.

I keep seeing people write about "the law" and "lawful" and what not. I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

If we're lucky, the damn Boomers will die off before they start a shooting war.

Anonymous Ackroyd November 14, 2012 8:13 PM  

The 2012 election was unlawful, contrary to the Constitution? Do tell, Jack.

It's easy to talk secession, how many here hate the US Gummint so much they would actually shoot a Marine? Let's see a show of hands...

Blogger Serge_Tomiko November 14, 2012 8:22 PM  

"It's easy to talk secession, how many here hate the US Gummint so much they would actually shoot a Marine? Let's see a show of hands..."

Right here.

Anonymous CunningDove November 14, 2012 8:23 PM  

Curious. If the Feds take over or bomb the crap outta Houston, from where will the USA get the gasoline to fly their little jets, tanks & trucks? Does NJ have enough refinery production potential to replace the loss of production from the destruction of the facilities & the workforce that operates those refineries? Where will they get the crude when the pipelines & railroads are destroyed & the bridges are impassible due to the bombing?

The mistake that you who believe "The Rebels Can Never Win" are making is in assuming that you can continue to have the same standard of production that you have today AFTER you have destroyed the infrastructure & experienced workforce that creates it.

*I have chosen Houston for my example simply because of the amount of oil related industry in that region.

Anonymous Outlaw X November 14, 2012 8:27 PM  

"I understand where you're coming from, but sadly, that is not how the world operates."

The world ain't for long for either of us, why compromise with it? Goodnight.

Blogger Serge_Tomiko November 14, 2012 8:29 PM  

"Again... do you sell to the guy with unlimited money or the guy with only IOUs? Think slower and more carefully this time."

The strength of the American Empire is a problem, as I discussed in a previous post. The financial power is immense.

Yet, you are ignoring several very realistic possibilities.

1) Assistance from outside powers. I don't believe very much military equipment would be required to cause major chaos in this country. A few containers of weapons and munitions would be enough for a few hundred thousand troops.

2) A substantial portion of the military would join our cause, and deliver Federal weapons. This happened during the civil war.

3) You are ignoring the sheer fun of war. There are a few million virginal omega men whose entire lives are spent working and playing video games and jacking off to porn.

Finding people to fight this fight will be the easy part. Training them to be soldiers, and getting them effective military grade weapons is a whole other matter.

Anonymous Pvt. Pyle November 14, 2012 8:30 PM  

Crap. Just get armed and may the best men do the most culling.

Anonymous HH November 14, 2012 8:30 PM  

ajw308 "Apparently HH thinks we've won in Afghanistan years ago."

I have nothing but respect for the young men of our military forces and grieve for the loss of every single one of them in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It was an unnecessary action and a waste of young men's lives and taxpayer money. There are limits to what military power can do.. but that means nothing to my original statement which is still correct.

Nate Says ""I see you're impressed with the US military. That's cute. It shows you haven't actually bothered paying attention."

I promise there is nothing cute about me and I pay very close attention. An asymmetric war is the US would be very different than either Iraq or Afghanistan.



Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 8:34 PM  

"Point 3: Secession wouldn't succeed. You think your guns can beat our tanks and jet planes? Think again."

In fact i know this is the case beyond any shadow of a doubt. Here are a few reasons:

1) Jets and Tanks are almost entirely useless in 4G warefare... as there is no centralized target to hit.

2) Every time the US has squared up against an ememy employing 4G tactics... its lost. Period.

3) Those flying those planes and driving those tanks... are more likely to turn them on the government than the people.

4) 100 million. MILLION. Armed. Angry. Americans.

Anonymous Soga November 14, 2012 8:35 PM  

CunningDove: They'll find a way. They'll either import the gasoline or impose some kind of gas rationing so they can keep running these machines.

CunningDove wrote:
"The mistake that you who believe 'The Rebels Can Never Win' are making is in assuming that you can continue to have the same standard of production that you have today AFTER you have destroyed the infrastructure & experienced workforce that creates it."

I'm not saying secessionists can't win. I'm saying it would be an extremely difficult, uphill fight for them.

Also, you're failing to take into account that the Feds would just mandate the building of new refineries elsewhere and there are many oil+gas companies that would love to keep on dealing with the Feds, so they'd provide the staff and/or the training to produce more gas.

Also, hitting infrastructure would affect the secessionists more than the Feds. Feds can afford collateral (financially and morally), secessionists can't. If you take out roads, secessionists are going to have trouble getting around. They can't take to the air quite like Feds can. Take out gas, and you gimp yourself too. You're a smaller, more localized force. Not the Feds. You also have the misfortune of having a bad reputation among most people with stakes in this kind of situation, especially non-whites who are threatening to become majorities.

It can happen, but you better pray for a Joan of Arc moment.

Blogger Nate November 14, 2012 8:35 PM  

"I promise there is nothing cute about me and I pay very close attention. An asymmetric war is the US would be very different than either Iraq or Afghanistan."

You're correct of course. It would be a total bloodbath for anyone that dared resist the force of those employing the 4G tactics.

Note: DC was almost totally shut down for 5 weeks by two morons with a van and AK. Imagine if they had a couple 300 win mags, real sniper training, and were taking those shots from 500 yards... instead of 100 feet.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 14, 2012 8:37 PM  

Who do you want to do business with if you sold weapons: the guys that can print unlimited money, or the guys who give IOUs?

Hey, newsflash - very shortly there will be no difference. You seem to think "money" is something. It's nothing but an IOU itself, no matter how much of it you can print.

I'm not an advocate of succession or civil war. I don't want it to happen. I would rather reach some sort of workable compromise that doesn't leave a bunch of dead people and ruined cities. But we're more likely to go over the violence cliff if people don't take the possibility of a break and a shooting war seriously. It can happen. Your blind faith in things that are rapidly passing away keeps you from understanding that. It makes you an agent of carnage.

1 – 200 of 311 Newer› Newest»

Post a Comment

NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Anonymous comments will be deleted.

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts