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Tuesday, December 04, 2012

And the Scouts of Britain fall

I have little doubt this decision will mark the beginning of British scouting's long decline into irrelevance:
The Scouts are to drop their historic rule that teenage recruits must declare religious belief, the movement’s leaders said yesterday. In future boys and girls who join the organisation will be allowed to declare themselves as atheists and make a pledge of honourable behaviour that makes no mention of God. The retreat from religion marks a break with a tradition begun in 1908 when the movement’s founder Robert Baden-Powell wrote a Scout Promise which required a vow to ‘do my duty to God’.
It's really rather remarkable how many organizations are so willing to commit suicide in the name of inclusion and accommodation with the secular world.  Especially when it is so obviously unnecessary; membership in the Scouts had grown by nearly 17 percent in the last 12 years.

Perhaps the Scouts will prove different than all of the various mainstream churches that have declined into irrelevance by moving into the world and away from God.  But I doubt it.  Atheists will doubtless opine that they can't see any possible reason why scouting should decline just because they are permitted entry, and yet, we see the same pattern play out again, and again, and again.

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84 Comments:

Anonymous daddynichol December 04, 2012 6:31 AM  

Cue Tad.

Anonymous Krul December 04, 2012 6:36 AM  

In 1908 founder Robert Baden-Powell, left, wrote a Scout Promise, which runs in full: ‘On my honour, I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God and to the Queen, to help other people, and to keep the Scout Law’


They'll be required to swear loyalty only to the Monarch. Interesting.

Blogger tz December 04, 2012 6:48 AM  

Admitting gays should help ... oh wait:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/18/3056607/boy-scouts-abuse-cases-echo-catholic.html

The girl scouts support planned parenthood. Are there new badges?

But religion is not enough - the church of england is still there and the monarch its head there, but we have the episcopalians who profess belief without a solif target for that belief. From the bottom, people are not bothering, and on the top they are becoming anglican right roman catholics and have some very beautiful liturgy.

The catholic church is vibrant, getting many converts now in africa and china where it is persecuted. But it hasn't changed the message or requirements since Pentecost.

Anonymous Steve Canyon December 04, 2012 6:54 AM  

Meanwhile, the National Catholic Reporter publishes an editorial endorsing women priests...

It wouldn't surprise me if there was split between the American Catholics and the Roman, Catholics, with the American ones declining into irrelevance like the Episcopalian pro-homosexual priests and female clergy types.

Blogger ray December 04, 2012 6:57 AM  

‘On my honour, I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God and to the Queen, to help other people, and to keep the Scout Law’


well, with God voted out, guess theyre only duty-bound to a Queen

how fitting

Anonymous DrTorch December 04, 2012 7:04 AM  

Tragic.

Anonymous Krul December 04, 2012 7:13 AM  

OT: Now that ATOB is out, can we look forward to the Nate/Inflation vs VD/Deflation debate fairly soon?

Anonymous FrankNorman December 04, 2012 7:15 AM  

Looks like the Roman Catholic tub-thumpers are here already. Anytime Vox posts on the gradual de-Christianization of the UK, it seems to turn into a Protestant-vs-Papist fight.

Anonymous kh123 December 04, 2012 7:18 AM  

"The girl scouts support planned parenthood. Are there new badges?"

Indeed there are.

Anonymous CatDog December 04, 2012 7:23 AM  

If you read the article you would see they don't have to swear loyalty to the Queen either. They can opt out if that if they wish.

Anonymous FrankNorman December 04, 2012 7:28 AM  

CatDog December 04, 2012 7:23 AM

If you read the article you would see they don't have to swear loyalty to the Queen either. They can opt out if that if they wish.


No surprises there.
Next thing to go? How about the bit about helping other people? It discriminates against the selfish.

Anonymous zen0 ph0bius December 04, 2012 7:29 AM  

No loyalty to the Queen you say? This is preposterous. It is as if the whole world has been turned over to gasconading jackanapes.

Anonymous p-dawg December 04, 2012 7:51 AM  

I believe atheist children should have the same chance to be molested by a scoutmaster as religious ones. It's only fair.

Anonymous JartStar December 04, 2012 8:16 AM  

I'm looking forward to the day that the King and Queen of England claim divine right in a ceremony which does not mention God.

Anonymous FrankNorman December 04, 2012 8:41 AM  

Just be thankful the Scouts aren't being required to swear alliegence to the European Union.

Anonymous Rantor December 04, 2012 8:48 AM  

JartStar,

If Charles is made King, you will have Divine Right by the Gods, as he has announced he wants to be called "Defender of the Faiths."

I guess if one is good, more is better.

Anonymous paradox December 04, 2012 8:55 AM  

All of this has happened before and it will happen again an again... and again... and again...

Anonymous Steve Gutenberg December 04, 2012 8:57 AM  

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

Ps14: 1-4


Filthy.

Anonymous Porky? December 04, 2012 9:00 AM  

I'm working on my eugenics badge.

Blogger Nate December 04, 2012 9:00 AM  

The pattern goes beyond just the acceptance of atheists. Scouting in america is declining rapidly.

My boys were in it breifly enough to see that it was now run almost entirely by women. The first meeting was spent teaching the scouts about scrapbooking and explaining that each scout would be making his own scrapbook.

/facepalm.

Between the creepy pledge of allegiance... the scrapbooking... we figured out pretty quickly that scouting wasn't for us.

Anonymous Porky? December 04, 2012 9:03 AM  

If Charles is made King, you will have Divine Right by the Gods, as he has announced he wants to be called "Defender of the Faiths."

And he'll replace Handel's "Zadok the Priest" with John Lennon's "Imagine".

Anonymous DonReynolds December 04, 2012 9:32 AM  

Rantor...."If Charles is made King, you will have Divine Right by the Gods, as he has announced he wants to be called "Defender of the Faiths.""

Charles is a bit lightheaded as usual. Must be Phillip's genes bubbling to the surface.

Defender of the Faith was a title conferred by the Pope on Henry VIII, prior to the break that created the Episcopal Church of England. The title was earned at the time by Henry defending the Roman Catholic church from attacks by Martin Luther. (Ironic, no?) So to get the title changed it would need to be surrendered to Rome (as has been requested for many centuries) for modification. Not sure if the Pope would ever return it.


Blogger Spacebunny December 04, 2012 9:37 AM  

Between the creepy pledge of allegiance... the scrapbooking... we figured out pretty quickly that scouting wasn't for us.

Like anything it varies. My brother is a troop leader for his boys - they've already got their sub-zero badges! Of course, he almost cut off his thumb with his skill saw, so maybe he's not the best person to lead and teach certain skills.....

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 04, 2012 9:51 AM  

To be fair, the Boy Scouts has not been all that religious, at least when I was a part of it back in the 90s. They have been more concerned with military ceremony and pseudo-American Indian rituals. In all honesty, reverence to God has been sweep under the rug.

My point is that for them to do this, they must not have really had much emphasis on faith in God to begin with.

Blogger Giraffe December 04, 2012 10:01 AM  

Like anything it varies. My brother is a troop leader for his boys - they've already got their sub-zero badges! Of course, he almost cut off his thumb with his skill saw, so maybe he's not the best person to lead and teach certain skills.....

He ought to be an expert in first aid.

Anonymous physics geek December 04, 2012 10:12 AM  

I guess that the God and Me/God and Family/God and Country series of pins and badges will get excised from the Scouting handbooks soon. Because the atheists will DEMAND it. "You can't force me to study that sky fairy stuff!"

Anonymous Rock Throwing Peasant December 04, 2012 10:16 AM  

I was a Cubmaster until my separation/divorce (the wife got a non-criminal PFA against me and that ended my time with Scouts). Run by women? My Pack is now. When I left, my ex-wife and her two girlfriends shoehorned in. This year, my son’s den leader quit because of the feminized curriculum (beebee guns and bows? Heaven forefend!). My ex-wife took over the den.

Not surprisingly, my oldest decided to quit scouts this year and my youngest is going to finish Webelos.

I suspect the BSA will go the route of the GSA. However, other organizations will spring up. Young Marines, Heritage Girls (the actual sister org of the BSA), etc.
It’s “Whack a Mole” with traditional values.

Anonymous Rock Throwing Peasant December 04, 2012 10:21 AM  

Just a followup rant.

It really sucks for my scouts. They went from being led by a former paratrooper (me) and a guy who built a business off the sweat of his back (my son’s former den leader) to a SAHM and part time daycare worker (the troll that took over as Cubmaster) and a woman who has never gone camping in her life (my ex). Which would you have teaching boys to be men?

/rant

Anonymous cheddarman December 04, 2012 10:32 AM  

The girl scouts support planned parenthood. Are there new badges? - tz

Yes, abortion badges.

Sincerely

Cheddarman

Anonymous Salt December 04, 2012 10:34 AM  

I was never a scout. I was, though, a member of the local gun club.

Anonymous paradox December 04, 2012 10:38 AM  

My son wanted to go so I took him. He really liked it to start with. The troop talked about God, keep in mind it was more like the Force or Deism. They did have worship day where a pastor came to talk. The meetings were even held at a church, Presbyterian so God preordained it. :) He stopped going because it conflicted with baseball practice.

However.. Nate is right, there is a creep cult like flag ceremony.

Anonymous Hank Hill December 04, 2012 10:47 AM  

It is clearly time for the Order of the Straight Arrow to replace the BSA.

Anonymous Curlytop December 04, 2012 10:50 AM  

Exactly, Sapcebunny!

We've had a great experience w the organization, but part of that is because we are good friends with a former Eagle Scout who searched for a good Pack when his son became age. Since my husband wasn't a scout, we leaned on his observations and have been pleased. When we moved, my husband found a fantastic Pack/Troop. It's small, but all the fathers' are heavily involved and we've been amazed at what our boys have learned. None of that girly scrapbooking stuff! Our second one is usually one that takes extra motivation to do things, yet he worked hard to advance out of Webelos early and into Boy Scouts based on what this little Troop does.

Husband and I have been very clear about what the lines are. Both the Scoutmaster and Asst. Scoutmaster were Eagle Scouts: one went into the service, the other self-made contractor in the area. It's a small community "out in the sticks" and I think that helps. There are good Troops, but you have to look hard. I also wonder how much geographical location plays a role? I know our boys would not be in Scouts if the local Pack/Troops were all manned by women.

Anonymous Crispy December 04, 2012 10:54 AM  

Cub Scouts (ages 5-11) may have a heavy female influence, because it's more "nurturing". In my experience with the Boy Scouts (age 11-18), though, there's a strong male influence, and respect for religion. We've had male scoutmasters for at least the past 5-10 years, and men have stepped up to most of the other leadership roles, though some mothers are active as well. However, this is a troop in Texas, and it's sponsored by the local Catholic Church. The religious emphasis is generally non-denominational, and there are emblems for different religions (e.g. Ad Altare Dei for Catholics; Ner Tamid for Jews) which entail merit-badge-style study of their particular faith. Hopefully the BSA can weather the current spate of attacks.

Anonymous Rex Little December 04, 2012 11:09 AM  

I don't see why an atheist should care if "do my duty to God" is in the Scout Oath. He can say those words and honestly mean them, because as far as he's concerned he has no duty to a nonexistent being.

Anonymous Daniel December 04, 2012 11:09 AM  

Of course, he almost cut off his thumb with his skill saw, so maybe he's not the best person to lead and teach certain skills.....

I would have made eagle if things like thumb removal had been a badge.

Anonymous Tad December 04, 2012 11:10 AM  

It's nice to wake up to good news; to see reason and inclusion mark the future of organizations that hope to make a positive contribution...and that's what we are seeing here. It's pretty clear that one can be loyal to their country, dedicate themselves to helping others and possess good survival and outdoor skills without having any belief in the supernatural.

Good on the English Boy Scouts!!

Anonymous Jimmy December 04, 2012 11:15 AM  

A pledge that is said in vain isn't exactly helpful. I know people that joined the Boy Scouts who aren't religious at all. They do it as a line item on their resume. Surely, the change in the pledge changes the character of the Boy Scouts, which is the worst thing even if it is minor change in the pledge. I just don't get why atheists can't just say it as a custom. There are many other Boy Scout ceremonies that may need to change to accomodate atheists.

Anonymous Vitus_Bering December 04, 2012 11:25 AM  

I was in Cub Scouts for one or two meetings. The den mother taught us how to tie a tie. I quit.
Before that I was in a group called Indian Guides. We each got a cool Indian name, as did our dads. I doubt this organizations survived, for obvious PC reasons. Too bad.

Blogger ajw308 December 04, 2012 11:28 AM  

I promise to do something, for no reason in particular, or something like that.

I can imagine their new oat now.

Blogger ajw308 December 04, 2012 11:29 AM  

Oath...

Anonymous Edjamacator December 04, 2012 11:29 AM  

I just don't get why atheists can't just say it as a custom.

Because, as a group, they are whiny, entitlement-minded buffoons who are in love with the same feeling of self-righteousness and superiority that seduces so-called "progressives." They are also easily offended by choice and seek the attention they get by "standing against the religious tide" and the ego-boost in convincing themselves that they are somehow heroic for taking a stand.

Like the Bible says: fools.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 04, 2012 11:31 AM  

I don't see why an atheist should care if "do my duty to God" is in the Scout Oath. He can say those words and honestly mean them, because as far as he's concerned he has no duty to a nonexistent being.

It's kind of like when a black woman gets offended when a white man eats a banana in public.

Anonymous rycamor December 04, 2012 11:34 AM  

American Christians have had a great alternative to the Boy Scouts for more than half a century: Christian Service Brigade. Kinda hard to take allegiance to God out of something called "Christian", but I suppose anything is possible...

While I was a missionary kid, I never had the chance to be in Brigade, but I somehow ended up with a 1958 copy of Brigade Trails (it was the early 70s) and I read that thing cover to cover many times. It is a classic old school boys' book on outdoorsmanship, Biblical leadership, and self-discipline. Highly recommended.

Even though I never got involved as a kid, in the mid-80s as a young man I had the honor to be a Squad leader under Capt. Frank Conlon in my south Florida church. Here was a true outdoorsman and man of God who took a team of boys, aged 10-18 all over the state, doing all the classic stuff the Boy Scouts don't do any more: camping, orienteering, team-building, nature walks (identifying plants and animals), and even (on discreet occasions) firearms training.

Of course, I have no doubt that Christian Service Brigade for boys has been diluted of masculinity and over the last couple decades, but if there's any ministry that needs young and middle-aged Christian men to step up, this is it. Now that my boy is getting close to that age, I'm going to be looking to get involved again.

Anonymous Porky? December 04, 2012 11:35 AM  

Atheists are among the most despised of humanity for good reason. Why would anyone want them in their organization?

Google Jim Jones for a glimpse of what an atheist jamboree looks like.

Keep working on that suicide badge Johnny.

Anonymous Edjamacator December 04, 2012 11:36 AM  

Heh, just read this article detailing some more atheistic nonsense with the crybabies taking issue with a private business and Sunday discounts. I guess these "open-minded" atheists don't really believe in anyone else's rights if they can't get a discount on grub. I like how atheists hide behind "civil rights" as if there's a Constitutional right to eat at a particular business. Don't like the discount they offer? Go somewhere else.

Idiots like Tad would tell people who complain about a TV show "then don't watch it," but have absolutely no problem demanding a show they don't like be removed. But then, fools can't see their own double-standards because, well, "fools."

Anonymous paradox December 04, 2012 11:40 AM  

Maybe theist should start invading the secular misfits at Camp Quest. Better yet, maybe atheist should stay at Camp Aspie and leave the Boy Scouts the hell alone.

Anonymous JartStar December 04, 2012 11:52 AM  

I doubt I’ll live long enough to see all of the consequences, but the de-Christianization of vast swaths of the European continent will be interesting to watch over the next few decades. Several countries have already reached a majority of non-believers in this generation, but it won’t last and it will be curious to see what replaces Christianity. Will paganism be a temporary stop on the way to Islam or back to Christianity?

Anonymous Daniel December 04, 2012 11:57 AM  

It's pretty clear that one can be loyal to their country, dedicate themselves to helping others and possess good survival and outdoor skills without having any belief in the supernatural.

Yeah, but Mao Zedong already proved that. Besides, atheists always had their own form of godless scouting: the Cultural Revolution.

Anonymous Tad December 04, 2012 12:11 PM  

@Edjumacator

Because, as a group, they [atheists] are whiny, entitlement-minded buffoons

Funny. It's not atheists who are demanding to be exempted from standard provisions of the healthcare law. It's the "I-hold-a-religious-belief", entitlement-mined Christians that are demanding exemption. Talk about entitlement-minded.

Christians and others of faith have been the real entitlement minded in this country for decades and decades, proclaiming they are "special-er" and ought to be given deference.

When reality sets in and their particular brands of entitlement are called out for what they are—like prayer in school—they get all whiny.

Christians: Whiny, entitlement-minded, gimme-what-I-wants!

Anonymous Edjamacator December 04, 2012 12:15 PM  

Nice try, Tad, but such Christians are only doing what you congratulate others for: standing up for their beliefs.

Tell me, Tad, just why do you think atheists should whine about not getting a discount at a PRIVATE business? Do you actually think atheists should be able to dictate terms to private companies based on their lack of religious belief?

Law is supposed to be debated so you reach the best option for all. Maybe the law should demand that atheists attend church in order to get diner discounts, too. Would you be all for that?

Anonymous T14 December 04, 2012 12:16 PM  

I like the idea of scouting. But god if the scouts I've met haven't been the sickliest, strangest men I've ever met.

And I can't imagine the current scouts are allowed to do anything fun anyway. Far as I know there is neither a trapping nor a skinning badge.

Anonymous Clay December 04, 2012 12:31 PM  

"T14 December 04, 2012 12:16 PM I like the idea of scouting. But god if the scouts I've met haven't been the sickliest, strangest men I've ever met."

Are you sure you haven't been hanging out with Tad's Rump Rangers?


Anonymous Tad December 04, 2012 12:47 PM  

@edjumacator
Tell me, Tad, just why do you think atheists should whine about not getting a discount at a PRIVATE business?

I don't.

Anonymous Toddy Cat December 04, 2012 1:59 PM  

Pretty damned funny, actually. Alleged conservatives now pre-emptively surrender, even when they are more or less winning. "Scouting growing by leaps and bounds? Can't have that, old chap, might cause a leftist to say something nasty. Better to just surrender now..."

If ever a political movement deserved to lose, it's modern pseudo-conservatism.

Blogger JDC December 04, 2012 2:17 PM  

I do home-school scouting (the scout troops in our area are fine, in fact they do some activities at the church), this past month? The 6y/o helped field dress my buck. Then, the 6 and 9 y/o helped me scrape and salt the hide. The best part...my wife almost threw up when our two kiddies came in with deer fat / flesh stuck in their fingernails. We also said a prayer thanking God for providing us with sustenance. We then watched Phineas and Ferb. Amen.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein December 04, 2012 2:23 PM  

I just don't get why atheists can't just say it as a custom.

Worked for me! *

*Technically more agnostic than atheist. Although, in my scouting years (30 some odd years ago), I leaned more toward atheism. [ For Vox's benefit: My parents were divorced when I was 3. My (very religious) mother had full custody and I only saw my (atheist) dad for a few hours each week. I scored a 37(!) on the AQ test. ...]
As you might expect, I am opposed to "prayer in (government) schools". My kids go to private school, where they have daily, administrator led prayers and it doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, I see to it that my boys regularly attend church. (I made a deal with my family that I would do everything I could to get them to go to church ...as long as I didn't have to!

Anonymous Ten41 December 04, 2012 2:30 PM  

rycamor

"...doing all the classic stuff the Boy Scouts don't do any more: camping, orienteering, team-building, nature walks (identifying plants and animals), and even (on discreet occasions) firearms training."

Do you live in a city or something? I am in North Florida, and I can guarantee that our Scout troop does those things.

I have made this observation though; we do get a large percentage of "different" kids (read that as you will). But, over time they drop out. Many boys won't join because they get made fun of at public school. All of the homeschooled boys stay in.

As for the female influence, we can't get anyone (male or female) to help out beyond a core group of parents. We have two females that volunteer time doing paperwork - which is a relief. For the rest of the parents it may be the baby sitter mentality, or they may not give a darn. Most of these boys come from broken homes, so the dad isn't around anyway.

It works out though, it allows my homeschooled boys to see how screwed up the world is.

For the Christian bent, our Troop leader is emphatic; we are Christian based as long as he is in charge.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein December 04, 2012 2:37 PM  

@ edjumacator

I see an oppurtunity for the militant atheists and the militant fundies to find some common ground here. The atheists can bitch about the discount. The fundies can bitch about the restaurant being open on the Sabbath!

BTW, do they serve "funny car chicken" or "burnout shrimp"?

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler December 04, 2012 2:46 PM  

The same reason an atheist can not be a philosopher is the same reason an atheist can not be in the Boy Scouts. Virtue. The Virtue of Righteousness demands duty to God. Virtue is tied to Wisdom. No virtue, no wisdom.

Yes, everything is conforming to "fairness" and "tolerance".

Anonymous Eduardo December 04, 2012 3:09 PM  

G Bubba you sacrificed your children XD to save your ass XD hahahhahaha.

Of course just kidding man, but I must admit your behavior is really different from what we get from the typical Web-Atheist...

Maybe the Web-Atheists are just people with too much time in their hands ...

Anonymous Elmer Fudge (friend of Sexual Chocolate) December 04, 2012 3:11 PM  

I first preface, that I am an Eagle Scout. I was inducted into the Order of Arrow, Karankawa Lodge 307. [interesting they call it -- Lodge] I have not been associated with scouting in 30+ years.

Further signs, that we indeed are in the last days? So far as scouting, "chickens coming home to roost?" One must understand origins:

Boy Scouts -- Model of Masonic Subversion? [the comments here, even more revealing than the parent article]

THE ORDER OF THE ARROW, ANOTHER MASONIC RITUAL?

I think, particularly for America, and Americans, one doesn't have a clue of what is really going on until one understands warfare. And by warfare, the most effective -- clandestine. One will never grasp this until they take the time to sit down, read, and study the following:

Chapter 11: "The Thirteen Article of Military Art," Rulers of Evil

Once one fully comprehends the Sun-tzuian axiom of "blown cover, as cover," one will not only gain understanding of the subversion of the United States, from 1787 on, but the subversion of our youth, since before most hear were even born.

One can speak, or make statements about God. But when it is done outside of the context of "Jesus Christ our Lord," it can mean anything, and ultimately -- nothing.

A picture (or graphic) constitutes a thousand words. Pay special attention to the gravestone of Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell (1857-1941) ...

Anonymous Ten41 December 04, 2012 4:44 PM  

Elmer...

You have linked to a site with Free Energy adverts. That always throws a red flag up for me.

As for BP's gravestone having the "gone home" symbol, which the website you linked defined as "vagina and penis", well, that is a hoot.

Anonymous Soga December 04, 2012 4:59 PM  

I just have to laugh at Tad every time he posts. A hallmark behavior of atheists is that they like to cite "separation of church and state" (a phrase that is conspicuously absent from the Constitution, it turns out) when it favors them.

But when the razor cuts the other way, atheists like Tad get their panties wet (must be irritating when you already have so much sand in your va-va) over the idea of the state micro-managing the policies of religious institutions which have little to no bearing on the existing moral framework of laws.

The bottom line is that the difference between keeping out atheists from the Boy Scouts per free association and forcing Catholic institutions to pay for contraceptives against their conscience is an enormous one, and that Tad conflates the two issue demonstrates that he is nothing but a typical atheist midwit who deludes himself into thinking that he is well ahead of the curve on account of nothing but his belief that his belief is a disbelief.

Anonymous nick digger December 04, 2012 5:40 PM  

It's kind of like when a black woman gets offended when a white man eats a banana in public.

Wait, we can't do that now, either??

Anonymous Bang Up December 04, 2012 5:47 PM  

I really don't care about Scouting, never did .
Based on what I remember about Scouting from when I was young and knew some kids that were in the Scouts; if today I did have a young son who expressed a interest in joining the Boy Scouts;
I would say only under the condition that he learn to fight first.

Anonymous rycamor December 04, 2012 6:12 PM  

Ten41 December 04, 2012 2:30 PM

rycamor

"...doing all the classic stuff the Boy Scouts don't do any more: camping, orienteering, team-building, nature walks (identifying plants and animals), and even (on discreet occasions) firearms training."

Do you live in a city or something? I am in North Florida, and I can guarantee that our Scout troop does those things.


Heh... these days I happen to live in semi-north FL, but back then was in Hollywood, so yes. Glad to hear about your troop.

Anonymous Tad December 04, 2012 7:07 PM  

@Soga

I don't think the Boy Scouts ought to be forced to admit anyone they don't want to admit. Fine, let them keep non Christians out. It has nothing to do with anything other than their own views on the world.

The demand for an exception to the healthcare law is something else. You've got a bunch of religious whiners who want to use the free exercise clause to wiggle out of an extra expense. That's all. If the healthcare law demanded Catholics USE contraceptives, then they'd have my support.

The problem with the Catholics trying to use the argument that because contraceptives are against their religious beliefs is that it requires them, if they want to be intellectually coherent, to support me when I say that the laws against arson should not apply to me if it is part of my deeply held spiritual belief and my conscience that tells me I must burn down all catholic churches.

Anonymous Sexual Chocolate (friend of Elmer) December 04, 2012 8:20 PM  

@Ten41

So, you're against Tesla tech? Apparently, so was the federal govt. At least, for its citizenry.

What's even more of a hoot, is the architectural relationship (or say more accurately the Pythagorean) between the Washington Monument and the Capital Dome.

Honestly, people coming here, thinking themselves so clever. When are you going to learn to first extract the present egg on your face, before you receive a second? It's just not fair. I have so many eggs to throw. I don't wish to be too cruel...

Anonymous Soga December 04, 2012 8:46 PM  

Tad wrote:
"if they want to be intellectually coherent, to support me when I say that the laws against arson should not apply to me if it is part of my deeply held spiritual belief and my conscience that tells me I must burn down all catholic churches."

Nobody has the right to infringe on the rights of others, especially with respect to the right of property. Insisting on exemptions from paying for contraceptives is a much different case from that of arson in the name of free exercise. Arson infringes on the right of property, but being exempted from providing contraceptives free of charge is not infringing on anybody's rights.

In addition, most employers usually adjust employee wages to account for expenses anyway, so even forcing employers to provide contraceptives free of charge just means that employees actually end up paying for it - just not directly anymore. It's a dead horse and you're beating it for no reason whatsoever.

The Catholic institutions are not pressing for this exemption just so they can be money-pinchers (another atheist myth... gee, I wonder how you guys know so much about what goes on in the minds of other people). As Catholics, they have beliefs and something that I rarely hear atheists talk about: conscience. Shocking, that.

Anonymous Tad December 04, 2012 9:25 PM  

Sorry, I'm just a sack of chemical reactions — ignore my fizzing.

Anonymous p-dawg December 04, 2012 10:19 PM  

@Tad: "It's nice to wake up to good news; to see reason and inclusion mark the future of organizations that hope to make a positive contribution...and that's what we are seeing here."

That's a pretty large bunch of assertions. Do you have any actual evidence for any of them or are you just speaking from your posterior?
1. What makes the news "good"?
2. What is reasonable about forcing people to associate with those they would prefer not to associate with?
3. Why is inclusion desirable in this case? Is it always desirable?
4. What constitutes a "positive contribution"? Or, to put it another way, what makes a contribution "positive"?

I will not hold you to the typical requirement that you answer every question posed you since four questions is more than a few. However, in my experience, most people who make assertions like this expect that they will be accepted without question, and I'm in the habit of questioning things which are expected to be accepted without question.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist December 04, 2012 11:40 PM  

Although I am a white male, I should be allowed to be an entrant in the Black Miss America Pageant. I'll stroll out in my jeans and Carhartt, and I will cry "bigots!!", when they don't pick me to win. Because being able to compete isn't enough. I must WIN. Otherwise the whole thing is just a loaded-dice sham.

Inclusion is always desirable. And should always be enforced, at gunpoint, by government.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist December 04, 2012 11:47 PM  

Okay, upon review, I can see that I have gone too far with that comment.

I'll just demand to be an entrant to the White Miss America Pageant.

(What's that? There isn't a White Miss America Pageant? OMG, someone tell the Congressional White Caucus! There isn't one? Sh&t. Someone has to get the word out: White Entertainment Television should be up to the task! ...there's no W.E.T.? Damn. We're screwed, then.)

Blogger Taqiyyotomist December 04, 2012 11:52 PM  

Really, it all comes down to Moonbats, and their various (plethorae?) insanities.

We're talking cornucopiae, bursting with symptoms.

Anonymous Toby Temple December 05, 2012 2:40 AM  

It was bound to happen. UK has been primarily secular for years now.

Pretty soon, the US Boy Scouts would succumb to the same thing.

Anonymous Beau December 05, 2012 4:05 AM  

"...doing all the classic stuff the Boy Scouts don't do any more: camping, orienteering, team-building, nature walks (identifying plants and animals), and even (on discreet occasions) firearms training."

Who is discreet? Our council in NM is very open about it. As for the rest, our troop was out camping this past weekend. Our boys in September went to obtain the Wilderness Survival badge taught by Air Force SERE personnel out of White Sands. Our church sponsors our Pack and Troop. Men lead both. We attract neighborhood boys, church kids, and NMMI cadets. Those of us in leadership very consciously conduct ourselves as developers of young men. We produced three Eagle Scouts in 2012. We are on track to do the same in 2013. Our pack and troop are led by pastors and evangelists, so yeah, we mention Jesus - a lot.



Blogger James Higham December 05, 2012 6:14 AM  

Truly horrendous news over here but not unexpected.

Anonymous Ten41 December 05, 2012 10:47 AM  

Sexual Chocolate (friend of Elmer)

I am not against Tesla technology, but there are even areas where his ideas did not pan out.

Free energy crosses the bounds of visible common sense. Why? Because it would not be a "US Government" conspiracy to cover it up, it would have to be "World Governments" conspiracy. If this information is available to other governments, especially those with little resources (read oil, coal) then they would be using this technology. Do you think they care what the US or US businesses think?

I do not care about the architectural similarities of buildings. I have less fear of Free Masons than I do of Democrats and Republicans. Of course, you may be referencing Dems/Repubs who are Free Masons, I don't know.

My beef was with the "gone home" symbol being construed with "vagina and penis" without ample proof that this was the case.

As for your tangents, we were talking Boy Scouts here. The website made very bold claims that had no merit.

And, as for the egg reference, whaaaaa? I do not mind being educated, but you, and that website, do not and did not do either.

Anonymous Eduardo December 05, 2012 11:16 AM  

fizzing: the act of pooping and ejaculating simultaneously!

WOOOW, that is some hardcore skills right there sack of atoms exchanging positions!

Anonymous E. PERLINE December 05, 2012 11:27 PM  

Believe it or not, when I was young I used to be a Boy Scout. Even then I felt we were missing something that we were sorely in need of. But I was too young to know what it was.

Now years later, I think I know. Boy Scouts aren't for learning how to live in the great outdoors.

Boy Scouts should teach boys how to become men. Honesty is a good thought. Being proud of one's trade is another thought. (No matter how humble one's trade, it can be transformed by creativity.) And men should require modest and not flamboyant government.

What's the real goal of this kind of Boy Scout training? It's to assume responsibilty for one's family.

Anonymous rubberducky December 06, 2012 1:13 AM  

I'm a former Boy Scout and Cub Scout. I recommend the program highly for all boys. Those of you who sense it's become to feminized, you seem to be talking about the Cub Scouts rather than the Boy Scouts. It has always been so, Cub Scouts have been dominated by Den Mothers and such from the beginning. We're talking about very young boys here though, so the apron string attachment to moms isn't so surprising nor unnatural. The Boy Scout troops are male dominant in culture. That's the whole point of them, actually, to provide an environment of positive, heteronormative masculinity for young men. Sure, feminists have managed to creep into the occasional Boy Scout leadership position (where they pointedly do not belong imho) over the years, but their influence so far has been minimal.

No question exists, the BSA is an institution under siege. I watched in horror when the Democrat National Convention came on TV back in 1992 in San Diego, and delegates rudely booed a bewildered Boy Scout honor guard trying to do the flag ceremony off the stage. Since then sustained effort has been made trying to force the BSA to become gay positive and also permissive of atheism. Some efforts have wound up before the Supreme Court, where thankfully the BSA (and the Constitution) have prevailed. But the progs are going to keep fighting until they prevail. The scouts are in a real, unprovoked battle (in 1992, they were invited guests -- invited in order to be booed!). They need your support.

Anonymous Jay December 06, 2012 3:09 AM  

Groups with a Christian heritage routinely get this strange idea that the way to increase their popularity is to abandon any principle or belief that offends anyone. The catch to this is that the only way to offend no one is to not say anything that has any substance. When once they thundered, "Thus saith the Lord ...", now they just beg, "Can we chat about this?" If you offend no one, you also inspire no one. Who wants to join an organization that has nothing to say except trite platitudes? Who wants to give his time and money to a group that doesn't even try to have any influence on people or society? Why bother? By seeking to make themselves inoffensive, they make themselves irrelevant. By trying to make themselves popular, they make themselves boring.

Blogger HANNAH'S DAD December 11, 2012 4:58 AM  

I was a Cub as a kid but we never had so much as a whiff of religion. This was in Canada though - maybe the ones in the US are wackier.

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