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Thursday, April 20, 2017

The loyalty of Fake Americans

As is so often the case, the inexplicable unjustices of history turn out to be entirely explicable once more of the details behind it are known:
On December 7, 1941, Airman First Class Shigenori Nishikaichi (c. 1919/20 – c. 10:00 am, December 13, 1941) (age 21/22), who had just taken part in the second wave of the Pearl Harbor attack, crash-landed his bullet-damaged plane, an A6M2 Zero "B11-120" from the carrier Hiryu, in a Niʻihau field near where Hawila Kaleohano (1912-1986), a native Hawaiian resident, was standing.[2] Kaleohano was unaware of the attack at Pearl Harbor, but knew from newspapers that the relationship between the U.S. and Japan was poor due to Japanese expansionism and the U.S. oil embargo on Japan. Recognizing Nishikaichi and his plane as Japanese, Kaleohano thought it prudent to relieve the pilot of his pistol and papers before the dazed airman could react. He and the other Hawaiians who gathered about treated the pilot with courtesy and the traditional Hawaiian hospitality, even throwing a party for him later that Sunday afternoon. However, the Hawaiians could not understand Nishikaichi, who spoke only Japanese with a limited amount of English. They sent for Japanese-born Ishimatsu Shintani (an issei), who was married to a native Hawaiian, to translate.

Having been briefed on the situation beforehand and approaching the task with evident distaste, Shintani exchanged just a few words with the pilot. He paled; the pilot froze. Shintani left. The puzzled Hawaiians then sent for Yoshio Harada. Harada, born in Hawaiʻi of Japanese ancestry, and his wife Irene (both nisei), constituted the remainder of the Niʻihau population of Japanese ancestry.

Nishikaichi informed Harada of the attack on Pearl Harbor, a revelation Harada thought prudent not to share with the non-Japanese natives. Nishikaichi desperately wanted his papers returned, which he had been told should by no means fall into American hands, but Kaleohano refused to return them. For unknown reasons, the Haradas decided to assist Nishikaichi to retrieve his papers and escape.
In other words, those second-generation United States citizens proved to be considerably more loyal to their people than to their paperwork citizenship. They weren't "every bit as American" as the descendants of the Mayflower and the Founding Fathers, they were Fake Americans and precursors to the post-1965 crowd.

Yes, nisei ultimately proved loyal and others didn't. But the salient point is that no one could possibly know. Then, as now, the genuine loyalties of citizens of foreign descent and dual citizens simply cannot be assumed.

That doesn't mean that the internment of all the Japanese citizens on the mainland was necessary; it was not because there was never any risk of an invasion of the West Coast. But the Niihau Incident does make it considerably easier to understand why internment was considered, and why few Americans had any problem with it at the time.

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136 Comments:

Anonymous Jeff April 20, 2017 8:10 AM  

If relations with China go south, it will be very interesting to see what happens to all the Chinese currently living in North America. They are a huge percentage of the population in some west coast cities, and even some eastern cities like Toronto.

Blogger Lazarus April 20, 2017 8:16 AM  

It may depend whether they are from Hong Kong, Taiwan, or the mainland.

Blogger Jaycephus April 20, 2017 8:17 AM  

Another factor in internment was the experience in WWI. A German national detonated a munitions stockpile in NYC harbor, seriously damaging the Statue of Liberty. That damage was the reason why access to the stairway up to the torch was barred to the public. But much worse than the loss of the munitions and the damage and loss of life was possibly the very change in history. I'm not certain of the timing, but those munitions were destined for Czarist Russia to assist in their battle with the Bolsheviks. This attack by a German national has been practically forgotten. I didn't learn it from any textbook in school. But it had to have been fresh in the minds of the American leadership at the beginning of WWII.

Anonymous Silly but True April 20, 2017 8:24 AM  

"...it will be very interesting to see what happens to all the Chinese currently living in North America."

Well there's no better way to say "I love you" in Chinese than with words that sound like "I need wall."

Blogger Phillip George April 20, 2017 8:32 AM  

This is why supra national Christianity is an Empire.

Or look at it this way: Islamists occupy lands for allah - that neo pagan moon god. Territory is important to them. Their culture is their law, their society, their history, their lands, their nativity. You can respect it all you like while they intend to shit on your respectfulness as someone who ISN'T their version of "We the people"

Just begin again. "We the people" isn't a bat shit crazy pagan people.

Anonymous Looking Glass April 20, 2017 8:39 AM  

The Internment almost completely blinded Japanese Intelligence within the USA. It was probably the biggest Counter-Intelligence move the USA might have ever pulled off. There's also the legitimate issue where nearly 6k gave up their US citizenship at the internment. ( http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/japanese-american-relocation )

Oh, and everyone forgets that the Empire of Japan claimed all Japanese descendants as citizens. So everyone of Japanese descent was, in fact, the citizen of a foreign power we were at war with. That was a somewhat massive issue.

The Internment was the proper policy, even if it was ugly. Sure, it ruined a lot of businesses/lives for those that were interned, but the alternatives were going to be a lot worse. Most especially when the Island Hopping deaths started to add up.

Though it still doesn't explain why Canada interned their Japanese.

Blogger Doug Cranmer April 20, 2017 8:41 AM  

I work in the tech industry on the West coast and live in a community that is close to parity in affluent Chinese. They are insufferable. Invaders, plain and simple. Here to loot what they can while they can.

Blogger Nate April 20, 2017 8:45 AM  

"They are insufferable. Invaders, plain and simple. Here to loot what they can while they can."

other nations are doing to us... what we used to do to other nations.

The difference is... we are asking them to do it to us and thanking them for it.

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2017 8:47 AM  

But...but...they were U.S. citizens. They would never turn on other U.S. citizens. And those interned Japanese turned out to be a-okay. No reason to worry about them. Look at George Takei...that guy was interned. He's a model American who can check off a number of census boxes...gay, Asian, Star Trek character...what would we do without him?

Anonymous MrMoto April 20, 2017 8:53 AM  

Remember also that it wasn't every one, everywhere in the US. Only on the west coast. Those living farther inland were not interned.

Blogger Chris Lutz April 20, 2017 8:58 AM  

@3 That story gets a brief mention in "Magic: The Untold Story" by Lowman. The FBI was still embarrassed by its failure in WWI. I guess there were more acts of sabotage than just that instance.

Anyways, Lowman lays out the Magic intel that the gov't had at the time of the relocation order. It's a bit dry but he does an excellent job of working through the time line and showing how the intelligence filter down to the decision makers. Some key points:

1. The Japanese had made a concerted effort to maintain the loyalty of the Japanese abroad through dual citizenship and college education back in Japan. A significant number of second generation Japanese-Americans had gone back to Japan for higher education.
2. The Japanese worked closely with Japanese trade, business, and community groups.
3. Japanese invasions in Asia and the Philippines had demonstrated that Japanese expatriates would help invading Japanese forces. (Notice OP)
4. The Japanese planned that once the war started they would run espionage and sabotage operations through their Central and South American embassies.

I believe there were adequate reasons for removing the Japanese and those of Japanese ancestry from the West coast. Yes some served honorably in the European theater. There were also a lot that protested vigorously and then hung around after the war demanding reparations. When you have a large number of people and you can't tell the good from the bad, what can you do except remove them all?

Some myths:
1. No, the gov't was not worried about a Japanese invasion. They were worried about sabotage and espionage. Considering that most Japanese communities were clustered near sensitive areas along the coast, they pretty much had to move. They weren't forced to go to the camps and a few were able to move to where other family members were.

2. Hawaii always gets brought up as we didn't round up all of the Japanese there. It is ignored that we did round up ones we were seriously concerned about. Also, the islands were under martial law for the duration of the war.

Blogger Chris Lutz April 20, 2017 9:02 AM  

@6 The interned them for the same reason we did. Also, pretty much every country in the Western hemisphere did the same thing.

One interesting thing about the intercepts is that the Japanese were worried about what would happen if their citizens were caught working for the Japanese gov't. They wanted to be careful to use them only when necessary.

Blogger Phillip George April 20, 2017 9:07 AM  

The beauty of a smashed Overton Window is you can just state a fact. A politically incorrect fact.

respecting a person's inalienable right to be wrong means treating the batshit crazy exactly like they are.
Their opinions render them useless. Like a calculator with a broken display. They have the right to be dysfunctional. A junk yard can be filled with junk. Sorry Vox. "Avalanche" just scored a very high rating on that other thread. You have some brilliant posters here. cheers from Australia

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 20, 2017 9:10 AM  

Tangential but related:

Why gay French Men are voting Far Right

Who could possibly guess?

Anonymous DissidentRight April 20, 2017 9:12 AM  

Asians are Fake Americans, and they act like it.

Anonymous Silly but True April 20, 2017 9:19 AM  

@Nate,
"The difference is... we are asking them to do it to us and thanking them for it."

If only there were a word for someone who asks someone else to plunder their most beloved while looking on.

Blogger SteelPalm April 20, 2017 9:25 AM  

Internment was one of the few good things the horrible villain FDR ever did.

And Vox is absolutely correct. One never knows even with second-generation immigrants. (Writes the first-generation immigrant!) Some nisei were loyal to the United States. Many others were not.

Putting them in camps, where they lived vastly better than most people in Europe at the time, was the prudent course of action.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr April 20, 2017 9:36 AM  

It always seemed to me that the Nisei should not have tried for reparations, but for veteran's benefits. On the grounds that internment was effectively conscription.

But Vox has a point. Unless you have many generations invested in a nation, to the point where nobody else will have you except as an immigrant, your loyalty is automatically suspect.

And some demonstration of loyalty will be demanded.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 20, 2017 9:41 AM  

The Japanese Internment occurred under very negative social mood (the bottom actually preceded the war), an environment of intense fear and distrust. It was reframed in recent years under maniacally high social mood, hence the "bad feelz" and attempts at redress for the few remaining survivors or their descendants.

This highlights how difficult we find it to imagine a future where 9/11 and all subsequent atrocities will fuel the mob's RAGE when all of it is reframed (again!) when social mood inevitably "corrects" this 35 year boom.

Every statistic previously buried by Equalists to "sell" Blank-Slate anti-racism, homosexuality and tolerate-everything perversion/insanity will FLOOD into the herd's consciousness.

I can only vaguely imagine the epic level of RAGE this will fuel. The amount of tinder available prior to 1860 was comparatively minuscule, yet Sherman wrote his wife of his desire to cleanse the South of every man, woman and child.

Today we metaphorically live like chemicals that spontaneously detonate when mixed, shuffled together like playing cards, and furiously importing more accelerant daily.

Blogger Michael Neal April 20, 2017 9:43 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Michael Neal April 20, 2017 9:43 AM  

Speaking of a mixed bag of loyalties, NK is coming closer and closer to hot war every day!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3370028/russia-putin-north-korea-war-troops-border/

Blogger dc.sunsets April 20, 2017 9:52 AM  

My father was 3rd wave USMC on Guadalcanal. Perhaps there are few left whose parents related wartime stories, but to most Americans, WW2 was ALL about Japan & the Pacific Theater. Only (((Hollywood's))) obsession with Germany retconned our gestalt of the war.

My father would still discuss the Bataan Death March well into the 1990's. In many ways, it's almost surprising that people who even vaguely looked East Asian weren't rounded up and massacred in 1941-42.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 20, 2017 10:00 AM  

PS: Given the forecast that our next "correction" (when it finally arrives in earnest) will be at least a degree-of-trend larger than that which set off the Great Depression (and World War Two) and also a degree-of-trend larger than that which led to Lincoln's War, it is entirely plausible that this one will be accompanied at some point by democide in North America. Of course, a Bubonic-Plague level pandemic might also suffice, it need not be entirely a politically-inspired depopulation event.

So the "news" isn't all bad....

Blogger Mama Pepe April 20, 2017 10:03 AM  

Fake Americans are frequently "native born." Hamsters born in aquariums don't magically become fish.

https://youtu.be/TVzppZZ9_Y0

OpenID anonymos-coward April 20, 2017 10:05 AM  

Phillip George wrote:neo pagan moon god

Not really. Islam is a straightforward variety of Satanism.

Which is why when people talk of it as an 'Abrahamic religion' they are only technically correct, in that Satanism is a kind of 'Abrahamic religion'.

Anonymous Bz April 20, 2017 10:24 AM  

Why gay frenchies vote far right? For the same reasons as Pim Fortuyn, I assume.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 20, 2017 10:35 AM  

The great European immigration waves of the late 19th, early 20th centuries greatly altered the Northeast seaboard, permanently. In the major urban centers the elite progressives (then a minority in the elite) aligned with the foreigners having radical new lefty ideas in order to normalize and advance them. Same old hook & crook propaganda methods deployed for general strikes, rabble-rousing, misinformation (Sacco and Vanzetti were guilty), etc.

All that is still going on today in the offices of the New York Times, Boston Globe, and Philadelphia Inquirer. These changes are permanent, you're going to have to perform a generational program of Americanization on many of these descendants by now -- for the FIRST time.

And that's with the European immigrants. It's not going to go any better at all with the Easterners, Africans, Muslims, Latins, and so forth.

Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III April 20, 2017 10:38 AM  

OT, but /pol/ demasked and identified bike lock guy from the Berkeley pleasantries.

Dude is a professor of philosophy at SFSU (rate my professor trolling in 3rd link)

http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/121944807#q121944807

http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/121979924#q121979924

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1954922

Blogger Phelps April 20, 2017 10:39 AM  

@1

"If relations with China go south, it will be very interesting to see what happens to all the Chinese currently living in North America. They are a huge percentage of the population in some west coast cities, and even some eastern cities like Toronto."

Given how easily the government of China mines the Chinese-American community for spies, I would expect constant sabotage and direct action.

Blogger rcocean April 20, 2017 10:51 AM  

"..but to most Americans, WW2 was ALL about Japan & the Pacific Theater."

That was even true of Hollywood during the 1941-1955 time period. Japanese vs. American war movies outnumbered the German vs. American war movie by 2-1. Wake island, Air force, Guadalcanal Diary, 30 Seconds over Tokyo, Pride of the Marines, They were expendable, etc. Then after the war, Mr. Roberts, Caine Mutiny, sands of iwo jima, Battle Cry, 3 Came Home,

Blogger rcocean April 20, 2017 10:54 AM  

The Hollywood German vs. USA war movies during 1941-1955 were usually about bravery of the average GI, or the AF High Command : Battleground, Stalag 17, Story of GI Joe, 12 O Clock High, Command Decision,

Blogger Paul Sacramento April 20, 2017 10:54 AM  

It is important to understand that immigration, even citizenship, does not guarantee loyalty to the New Home VS the Old Home.
Sure people come over looking ( sometimes getting) a new and better life BUT that in of itself doesn't equal loyalty for all people.
Hence some people refer to themselves as "African-American" or Spanish-Canadian" or whatever.
There original nationality first and their adopted one second.
Not to say that there aren't any that are MORE loyal to their new homes, of course some are, perhaps even most BUT there is NO way to know for sure.

Blogger jaericho April 20, 2017 11:02 AM  

OT: does anyone else have issues with Infogalactic and https? With every https link to IG I have to manually switch to http to get it to work.

Blogger jaericho April 20, 2017 11:05 AM  

[b]It is important to understand that immigration, even citizenship, does not guarantee loyalty to the New Home VS the Old Home.[/b]

True. I had great-uncles that asked to go to the Pacific theater instead of Europe because they didn't want to kill any potential cousins.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 11:17 AM  

"Also, the islands were under martial law for the duration of the war."

They were not America.

Anonymous Opus April 20, 2017 11:23 AM  

Failed the Cricket Test!

On the subject of internement I suppose that it is generally little reported but nonetheless true that in 1939 The British locked up a fair number of Jews. The R18 camps were a lot less pleasant so I understand than places like Auschwitz.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 20, 2017 11:32 AM  

For unknown reasons...

Sure do see that phrase a lot. I guess it is a little snappier than "for reasons we don't want to admit..."

Anonymous BBGKB April 20, 2017 11:38 AM  

I used the "Fake Americans have to go back" a couple times last night. I went to the area's DieVerse City to a buffet (I wont eat somewhere that my food could be singled out while wearing WHITE LIVES MATTER) & there was 2 vans of Boys Scouts there with a wetback chimping over one of the boy scouts hats having a confederate flag. The scouts came into the city to go to a museum. Wetback said I should meet him in the parking lot, I said "I have no desire to fight you, yallll heard that right, but if you act like a stereotypical non Asian minority & chimp out I will defend myself. If you get taken out of the picture your son looks like the kind gays want to adopt"

A niggerette also put her EBT/Foodstamp card cents in while I was telling the scouts how cuckservatives preferring to lose instead of being called bad names, & even if you capitulate like Scouts did with trannies after 1000+ jewish lawsuits they will still hate you.

Tangential but related:Why gay French Men are voting Far Right Who could possibly guess?

Gold digging manwhores are the ones that wanted marriage the most.

Blogger Student in Blue April 20, 2017 11:45 AM  

@28. Whitey Whiteman III

Don't bother linking direct links to chans, threads always die pretty quickly. If you want to link to a thread, make an archive of it first.

Anonymous Roundtine April 20, 2017 11:45 AM  

China, like Imperial Japan, considers all Chinese to be Chinese citizens. It's unclear exactly how far this goes, but they detained a PRC Chinese man who changed his nationality (he was a dissident and still going on about the PRC after leaving). Also, if a child is born overseas and 1 parent is Chinese and has not renounced citizenship or obtained permanent residence, they cannot obtain a Chinese travel visa, but require a special travel document because they are considered to have a right to citizenship. There are a lot of these children in limbo in China because they don't have full citizenship and thus cannot attend Chinese schools.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 11:49 AM  

"China, like Imperial Japan, considers all Chinese to be Chinese citizens.

It is a question of nationality.

Anonymous KWalther (KDub) April 20, 2017 11:56 AM  

While the Haradas were US Citizens, Hawai'i wasn't even a US State at the time so this is really a bad example.

Blogger Noah B The MacroAggressor April 20, 2017 11:59 AM  

Even if invasion wasn't likely, a few dozen saboteurs could have caused serious problems for communications and logistics. In late 1941 it wasn't at all clear that the Soviet Union would be able to last another year.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 20, 2017 12:04 PM  

While the Haradas were US Citizens, Hawai'i wasn't even a US State at the time so this is really a bad example.

The official designation of a patch of dirt doesn't matter. We're talking about nations here.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 12:07 PM  

@Jack Amok:

It's relevant to placing it under martial law.

Anonymous Tipsy April 20, 2017 12:14 PM  

Resident Moron™ wrote:Tangential but related: Why gay French Men are voting Far Right

It's interesting. The gay Left in America can still indulge in sticking to the man (as it were) and voice their disapproval of "Islamophobia" precisely because Islam is not a existential threat in the US.

It's clear that more and more French are realizing their nation is in serious danger of being replaced by an Islamic one. That's got those on the margins of society worried....

Blogger Student in Blue April 20, 2017 12:15 PM  

Martial law is irrelevant to the subject of Japanese "Americans" choosing to aid Japanese nationals conceal information from the Americans.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 20, 2017 12:16 PM  

It's relevant to placing it under martial law.

I don't see how it is, but regardless, what does Martial Law have to do with the loyalty of the Haradas? Other than perhaps making it easier to shoot them on the spot?

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 12:17 PM  

@Student in Blue:

That's why I only addressed the matter with regards to martial law.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 12:25 PM  

"I don't see how it is . . ."

The issue is law.

" . . .what does Martial Law have to do with the loyalty of the Haradas?"

Nothing. The issue is only law. The issue was raised by someone else and I noted that the legalities of martial law were different in Hawaii than they were in a state.

Hawaii was annexed to serve as a naval station for the promulgation of American interests in China. It was a property with innate military basis, as opposed to a state where the military basis was defense.

If it hadn't come up, I wouldn't have addressed it.

Anonymous Tipsy April 20, 2017 12:26 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:My father would still discuss the Bataan Death March well into the 1990's. In many ways, it's almost surprising that people who even vaguely looked East Asian weren't rounded up and massacred in 1941-42.

One of closest friend's contends that Japanese internment saved many lives from mob violence, based on the rage that Californians felt after news of the Bataan Death March,

Anonymous LemonGrads April 20, 2017 12:31 PM  

This blog is such a treasure of recources to use against typical left argument. Chris Lutz great contribution.

Blogger tuberman April 20, 2017 12:35 PM  

At age 10 i was already a game player, and sometimes I wandered over to an area called South Park (a few decades before the comedy), and a block away from the park was a little Japanese guy that later introduced himself. He was going over some checker moves with a book on his side. I said, "Hi," and told him that although I was just a fair player nobody inn my neighborhood would play me chess or checkers anymore.

We played checkers, and I never won, getting a couple of difficult draws out of many games, and we played some chess and I won all of those (I had already been studying books on chess).

He told me, on about the second or third visit that he was a stanch fascist during WWII and still believed it was the best way. He also said, that he was actually in the process of trying to contact someone to give him sabotage tools or explosives when he was sent to a camp. He also suggested that a number of other young Japanese that he met at the camps were interested in doing whatever they could to help the Japanese war effort.

This was 1958 when he told me this, and likely just his Gamma BS to a naive kid. But I later figured that a rare few of those Japanese youth would have carried out some minor sabotage, and the backlash would have been nasty.

Anonymous Logic April 20, 2017 12:37 PM  

By this logic, we shouldn't trust you: not in the US and not in Europe, because you might be more loyal to your other blood.

And by the same logic, Native Americans and Mexicans should not trust you either.

By your logic you belong no where, and are not to be trusted by anyone.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 20, 2017 12:42 PM  

@22 dc.sunsets
but to most Americans, WW2 was ALL about Japan & the Pacific Theater.
---

I have got the same impression and long suspected there was a retcon.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer April 20, 2017 12:47 PM  

Thinking based on solipsism causes an individual to assume that everyone else bases their thoughts on solipsism. Funny that trolls think that will be an effective attack here.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 12:48 PM  

Presumptively addressed to VD:"By your logic you belong no where, and are not to be trusted by anyone."

And?

Blogger Jon Mollison April 20, 2017 1:00 PM  

Ah, but you see, Hawaii wasn't a state at the time of this incident. It's dirt didn't become magic until the paperwork for statehood took effect in 1959. Checkmate!

*smirk*

Anonymous Logic April 20, 2017 1:03 PM  

kfg: so let's lock him up in an interment camp because he might turn on us, and "us" can be literally anybody.

Don't listen to him because he is not to be trusted.

Anonymous Susan April 20, 2017 1:05 PM  

Given that their Queen had been overthrown at the urging of businessmen and sugar planters of the day, the Haradas probably were old enough to remember when America stole their country right out from under them back in 1893 or so when their queen was put under house arrest by our Marines.

There was a lot of anger simmering among the population of the day I suspect, and they were in no mood to help the hated Americans.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 1:05 PM  

@Jon Mollison:

The loyalty of Hawaiians was, in fact, questionable with regards to the US . . . but not with regards to the Japanese.

Blogger Lovekraft April 20, 2017 1:08 PM  

Truth is the first casualty of war. There is as much need to fight for the narrative as with actual boots.

Blogger American Spartan April 20, 2017 1:08 PM  

http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/the-irish-rebels-who-fought-against-the-us-in-the-mexican-american-war

Also the time the Irish backstabbed America and sided with the Mexican people, well the first time at least (Ted Kennedy being the most recent)

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 1:12 PM  

@Logic:

You seem, as per Basement Home Brewer's comment, to be confused by the fact that VD does not solipsistically alter his thesis on the basis of the logical fallacy of personally disadvantageous consequences.

Just because you would does not imply that he should.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 1:21 PM  

@American Spartan:

The Irish have a long history as mercenaries. It is an illustrious history in military terms, but mercenary nonetheless. They often found themselves fighting on both sides, most recently I believe in the Spanish Civil War.

Anonymous Mathias April 20, 2017 1:25 PM  

@63,

To be fair, this was the start of the great famine era, they would fight for anyone willing to feed them after being starved out of their homeland by the English monarchy.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 1:32 PM  

@Mathias:

Remember Cremona!

Anonymous Logic April 20, 2017 1:37 PM  

kfg: Sigh, I forgot about the mouth-breathers that are allowed to comment here. Altering his views was never a suggestion. Now please re-read and try to think what the logical outcome might be.

Anonymous Mathias April 20, 2017 1:38 PM  

@67,

We both know that English-Irish history is a catalog of backstabbery and duplicity on both sides, don't act like the Irish started it with that incident. That feud goes back before the Romans arrived and Hadrian built his wall.

Anonymous Cyclone Bob April 20, 2017 1:38 PM  

The true test of Jap-"americans" americanicity would have been to send that famous "highly decorated" Army japsquad to fight against Japan, rather than valiantly killing White men in Europe.

Since our military was unpozzed at the time, we knew damn well they couldnt be trusted to bleed red white and blue rather than yellow.

Contrast this our 2003 military, who sent muslims to Iraq 2, resulting in the muslim nigger tossing grenades into his "fellow soldiers" tents. And even then there was no leader present with the balls to administer a battlefield execution - they flew the POS stateside for a court martial, and another, and another. He received the death sentence 12 years ago, but continues to breathe American air and eat American food.

Anonymous Joe Blowe April 20, 2017 1:41 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:My father would still discuss the Bataan Death March well into the 1990's.

The only reason there was a "Death March" was because the Commie-Globalist FDR and his Commie-Globalist infested White House deliberately starved and abandoned the men that were on the Bataan peninsula. 60 miles to trained soldiers not starved by their commanders is a walk in the park. In fact the loss of the Philippines, more specifically the loss of the deliberately grounded B-17's at Clark Field, was a greater strategic defeat than the loss of the outdated, undermanned WWI ships sitting duck at Pearl Harbor. It was the greatest defeat of the US Army in history. Those men were sacrificed, just like the men at Pearl Harbor were sacrificed by the Communist FDR to 1.) sucker the American people into a war they did not want and 2.) to prolong the war and give the Communists time to rebuild and conquer territory Westward and Eastward, filling the power vacuum left by the defeat of the Japanese. This latter reason was the same reason Patton and his 3rd Army was denied gasoline. He would have entered Berlin weeks if not months before the Red Hordes. Everything FDR did has to be viewed through the lens of the Communist, i.e. Globalist, Agenda.

Anonymous WaterBoy April 20, 2017 1:49 PM  

(Somewhere in the distant ether, a faint whinny echoes forth.)

Vox, you don't already have enough on your plate?

Anonymous Keoni Galt April 20, 2017 1:52 PM  

Susan wrote:Given that their Queen had been overthrown at the urging of businessmen and sugar planters of the day, the Haradas probably were old enough to remember when America stole their country right out from under them back in 1893 or so when their queen was put under house arrest by our Marines.

There was a lot of anger simmering among the population of the day I suspect, and they were in no mood to help the hated Americans.


There is STILL anger at the overthrow amongst us native Hawaiians...but that would have almost nothing to do with this particular incident, as all of the Japanese involved in this would have zero loyalty or anger regarding the overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani.

The real issue regarding this story is this - in 1942, Hawaii was full of immigrants from all over - Chinese, Filipinos, Japanese, Portuguese, Okinawans, Koreans, Germans, Spanish, English, etc., all brought in to work the sugar plantation system. (Whites were brought in as land managers and overseers, yellows and browns as laborers). At that time, there was little assimilation, some miscegenation and mostly segregation amongst the races. Most plantations either had one camp of a singular ethnicity of workers or several different camps for any single plantation...all segregated by race.

Of all the different immigrant races, the most ethno-centric and nationalist were definitely the Japanese. And that ethno-centricity carried over multiple generations in Hawaii's "melting pot" society, even until the present day...though as we move into fifth and sixth generation American Japanese it's far less pronounced then it was just 10-20 years ago.

When I was a kid, I went to school in the late 70's/early 80's with third and fourth generation Japanese kids who were raised as Americans in the 50th State...and yet they still largely hung out in their own ethnic groups in school, (most notorious stereotype was "Jap Band Geeks," as almost entire public school marching bands in many schools were entirely Japanese students even though the school had a multitude of different races in the student body,) and many still had parents that forbade them from dating any kids of other races, and many of them also had to attend Japanese school after regular school was over for the rest of us kids.

In 1942 Hawaii, a second generation Jap was most likely raised fluent in Japanese as his first language, still raised to be loyal to the Emperor, and definitely loyal to his race...and certainly wouldn't have any sort of loyalty to America at all. Had there been no internment, I doubt the second and third gen Japanese would have volunteered to fight and achieve their famed valor fighting in Europe. Many of them enlisted to "prove" their loyalty to the US so that their families could possibly be released from the internment camps.

Nevertheless, those Japanese veterans came home in a Patriotic fervor, and all their children were raised to be proud and loyal Americans - but still "racist" to the core.

Blogger American Spartan April 20, 2017 1:54 PM  

Mathias wrote:@63,

To be fair, this was the start of the great famine era, they would fight for anyone willing to feed them after being starved out of their homeland by the English monarchy.


Starving on an island surrounded by fish. The Irish scummed up in a nut shell.

Blogger Nick S April 20, 2017 1:58 PM  

To merely speculate that Gonzalo Paul Curiel's opinions could possibly exhibit shades of bias toward people who share his heritage is abominable racist hate speech. On the other hand, everybody knows white men are genetically predisposed to maligning and proactively oppressing everyone who are not white males. It's settled science!

Blogger dc.sunsets April 20, 2017 1:59 PM  

@71 And FDR's evil was preceded by Wilson's unnecessary (and British-spy-enabled) entry into WW1, breaking the European Stalemate.

And Wilson's war was enabled by Lincoln's repudiation of the voluntary compact of the Constitution of 1787, which itself was a coup de tat against the Articles of Confederation (which is the form of government for which American Revolutionaries fought and died.)

It's turtles, all the way down, everywhere you look, isn't it? We are born, we live, then we die. If courageous, we leave kids & grandkids.

Blogger Keoni Galt April 20, 2017 1:59 PM  

Susan wrote:Given that their Queen had been overthrown at the urging of businessmen and sugar planters of the day, the Haradas probably were old enough to remember when America stole their country right out from under them back in 1893 or so when their queen was put under house arrest by our Marines.

There was a lot of anger simmering among the population of the day I suspect, and they were in no mood to help the hated Americans.


There is STILL anger at the overthrow amongst us native Hawaiians...but that would have almost nothing to do with this particular incident, as all of the Japanese involved in this would have zero loyalty or anger regarding the overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani.

The real issue regarding this story is this - in 1942, Hawaii was full of immigrants from all over - Chinese, Filipinos, Japanese, Portuguese, Okinawans, Koreans, Germans, Spanish, English, etc., all brought in to work the sugar plantation system. (Whites were brought in as land managers and overseers, yellows and browns as laborers). At that time, there was little assimilation, some miscegenation and mostly segregation amongst the races. Most plantations either had one camp of a singular ethnicity of workers or several different camps for any single plantation...all segregated by race.

Of all the different immigrant races, the most ethno-centric and nationalist were definitely the Japanese. And that ethno-centricity carried over multiple generations in Hawaii's "melting pot" society, even until the present day...though as we move into fifth and sixth generation American Japanese it's far less pronounced then it was just 10-20 years ago.

When I was a kid, I went to school in the late 70's/early 80's with third and fourth generation Japanese kids who were raised as Americans in the 50th State...and yet they still largely hung out in their own ethnic groups in school, (most notorious stereotype was "Jap Band Geeks," as almost entire public school marching bands in many schools were entirely Japanese students even though the school had a multitude of different races in the student body,) and many still had parents that forbade them from dating any kids of other races, and many of them also had to attend Japanese school after regular school was over for the rest of us kids.

In 1942 Hawaii, a second generation Jap was most likely raised fluent in Japanese as his first language, still raised to be loyal to the Emperor, and definitely loyal to his race...and certainly wouldn't have any sort of loyalty to America at all. Had there been no internment, I doubt the second and third gen Japanese would have volunteered to fight and achieve their famed valor fighting in Europe. Many of them enlisted to "prove" their loyalty to the US so that their families could possibly be released from the internment camps.

Nevertheless, those Japanese veterans came home in a Patriotic fervor, and all their children were raised to be proud and loyal Americans - but still "racist" to the core.

Anonymous Mathias April 20, 2017 2:00 PM  

@73,

The King's Fish, do you not know how traditional field and game laws have worked in area's governed by the English Crown?

Blogger dc.sunsets April 20, 2017 2:04 PM  

@74 We're well on our way to a situation where Blacks can only be tried by Black prosecutors, defended by Black attorneys, judged by Black juries at trials presided over by Black judges. Ditto "Hispanics" (whatever the hell that designation refers to) and Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Philippinos, etc., etc., just like Indian Reservations have tribal courts.

Melting pot? Stew pot, filled with rotting meat, more like.

Oh, how we are going to go our separate ways in coming years....

Blogger Latigo3 April 20, 2017 2:11 PM  

I often wonder about the percentages of disloyal citizens that either came here after 1965, or were born to parents who came after 1965.

I know three brothers, born in the United States from Central American parents. 2 out of the 3 regard themselves as Americans first and their career and study choices indicate that, one is majoring in Business and the other is a scientist, their attitudes are very refreshing. Yet, the middle brother is majoring in Sociology, with an emphasis in Hispanic Studies. He thinks of himself more from the Central American country that his parents came from than an American.
So, just looking at one family that is 33% of the second generation. I actually think the numbers are higher.

I tell people all the time, if you don't like it over here you can always go back.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 2:15 PM  

@Logic: "Now please re-read and try to think what the logical outcome might be."

You stated a premise. I find it uncontroversial. If you wish to build it into a syllogism please do so. If your conclusion is the implied "he is not to be trusted," I note that appears to be your premise, i.e. begging the question.

I stipulate it. And?

@Mathias: ". . .don't act like the Irish started it with that incident."

I have no idea what you're talking about. I hold the event in much the same regard as I do Thermopylae, and they won!

And despite the the discomfort I might in invoke in Nate and Mosby, there is also the action of the original "Fighting Irish," the First NY at First Manassass:

These days will be remembered, by America's noble sons.
If it hadn'ta been fer Irishmen, what your Union done?
Hand to hand we fought 'em, all in the burning sun.
Stripped to the pants, we did advance,
at the Battle of Bull Run.

Anonymous Mathias April 20, 2017 2:28 PM  

@80,

Forgive me, I thought you were pointing out a reason why the British Crown would punish the Irish, an embarrassing military defeat seems a good a reason for vengeance as any.

Blogger James Dixon April 20, 2017 2:36 PM  

> Vox, you don't already have enough on your plate?

It's a trap. We're going in.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 20, 2017 2:51 PM  

@Whitey Whiteman III

Noice. By the way, your Rate My Professor link for the bike lock attacker, Eric Clanton, is showing "rating this professor is currently restricted." That was fast. Apparently mentioning that a professor has a propensity for unprovoked assaults with a deadly weapon is NOT FAIR, it would seem.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 20, 2017 2:57 PM  

Japanese source reports China may cut off the rest of oil supplies to North Korea in the event of another nuke test or another long range rocket test.

Anonymous Logic April 20, 2017 2:57 PM  

kfg: What are you talking about? "VD is not to be trusted" was not the premise. And, it is approximately related to the conclusion but really, it is more complicated than that. And it had nothing to do with changing his mind which is what your comment was about. You seem to be functionally illiterate and try to cover it up with big words.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 20, 2017 2:59 PM  

@Opus

"The British locked up a fair number of Jews. The R18 camps were a lot less pleasant so I understand than places like Auschwitz."

And, of course, Zionists in Palestine were carrying out terrorist attacks on Btish troops, civilians, and infrastructure at the same time that the Brits were fighting for the Jews in Europe.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 20, 2017 3:05 PM  

@70
The true test of Jap-"americans" americanicity would have been to send that famous "highly decorated" Army japsquad to fight against Japan, rather than valiantly killing White men in Europe.

Only if you wanted them all killed in friendly fire incidents.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 20, 2017 3:10 PM  

American Spartan wrote:Starving on an island surrounded by fish. The Irish scummed up in a nut shell.

True, but nothing beats the English Puritans in this regard. This old Scot has to give his Irish cousins a helping hand. Indulge me for this tale:

Captain John Smith scouted the coast of what he named New England for gold and sarsaparilla, but what he came back with was tons of cod (and some indian slaves). He sold that cod in Spain and made his fortune, catching the eye of the Puritans looking to escape religious persecution. The Puritans then petitioned the English Crown to establish a fishing colony at Cape Cod to exploit and develop things just as Captain John Smith had made public.

So, fast forward to Plymouth Rock, they didn't bring adequate tackle and nobody knew how to fish. So they starved and so on, according to the Thanksgiving story, and almost died out. But they were hardly in isolation, as the Thanksgiving story would have you believe. At that same time there was a fleet of 30 English ships right offshore, as well as Portuguese and French fleets working the cod, too.

That cod fishery was the greatest and richest fishery ever discovered in human history. It built and financed New England and the Revolutionary War, and also (to be quite frank) the three-way trade in cod, rum, molasses and slaves between the English Colonies, the Caribbean, and Africa.

And the Pilgrims almost died out right on its banks.

Blogger DonReynolds April 20, 2017 3:14 PM  

@3 Jaycephus
The explosion on Black Tom Island was on July 30th, 1916. There are claims that the munitions were intended for Russia, but this was well-before the March 1917 overthrow of the Czar and the second revolution in November 1917, which brought the Bolsheviki to power.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 20, 2017 3:23 PM  

@Susan

"Given that their Queen had been overthrown at the urging of businessmen and sugar planters of the day, the Haradas probably were old enough to remember when America stole their country right out from under them"

You seem confused. Are you claiming that the US overthrew the queen of Japan in the 1890s? Or that the Haradas were native Hawaiians? Because neither is the case.

If you bothered to read the link, the native Hawaiians most closely involved on this incident were Benehakaka "Ben" Kanahele and Kealoha "Ella" Kanahele. Benehakaka was shot three times by the Japanese pilot, Nishikaichi, after which he picked up Nishikaichi, threw him into a stone wall, and Kealoha bashed him in the head with a rock. While this was going on, Hawila Kaleohano and 5 other native Hawaiians were paddling (for 10 hours, at night) to Kauai to alert the US authorities.

Perhaps your argument would be more convincing if you started with the known facts, rather than simply making up a story to fit your ideological proclivities.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 3:25 PM  

@Logic: "By this logic, we shouldn't trust you: not in the US and not in Europe, because you might be more loyal to your other blood."

That's right. Now that we have that out of the way, were you intending to go somewhere with it?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 20, 2017 3:31 PM  

@Joe Blow

"Those men were sacrificed, just like the men at Pearl Harbor were sacrificed by the Communist FDR to 1.) sucker the American people into a war they did not want and 2.) to prolong the war and give the Communists time to rebuild and conquer territory Westward and Eastward, filling the power vacuum left by the defeat of the Japanese."

Of course FDR tried his best to provoke Japan into war with the US. Given that he succeeded in that, it's difficult to criticize the Japanese internment decision, though.

Blogger Matt April 20, 2017 3:37 PM  

Vox, are you now willing to offer half an apology to Me-So Michelle?

Tell her, you so SO-llyyyyy

Blogger tublecane April 20, 2017 3:39 PM  

@22-Ri most Americans, yes, but not to the ones in charge. They wanted to protect the empire in the East, but mostly Japan was thought of as a Backdoor to War where it really mattered: Europe.

Blogger DonReynolds April 20, 2017 3:42 PM  

I keep seeing reference to the fact that Japan and China still claim their own citizens in the USA, even if they are born here or naturalized.

Under Article 15 of the Mexican Constitution, every child born of one or more Mexican parents is a Mexican citizen.....no matter where they are born in the world. They are still considered Mex by the Mexican government, so we need not fret about the fate of the Dreamers or the anchor babies. They already have a country.

Blogger DonReynolds April 20, 2017 3:53 PM  

@88 a deplorable rubberducky
The Puritans on the Mayflower were intending to land in Virginia but the difficulty of navigation caused them to sight land at Massachusetts Bay instead. Once they figured out where they were, their first indication was to follow the coast down to Virginia....where English settlers already were located. But there was a problem. Their beer supplies had about run out, so it was decided to go ashore to make more beer and then proceed to Virginia. Since, there was no legal authority on land, the captain insisted that they agree on some form of governance before landing. This became known as the Mayflower Compact. Once on shore, they decided to stay and the ship would not wait for them to agree. So the ship sailed without them and they were left to make it work where they landed.

Blogger DonReynolds April 20, 2017 4:09 PM  

@65 kfg
The Irish are not One People, that is why they can fill the ranks on both sides of any conflict.

They were on both sides even during the Mexican-American war, the "St Patrick Brigade" of the Mexican army was primarily formed with Irish deserters from the American army.

The American civil war had Irish on both sides. One Confederate general said the Union won the war because they had more Irish!

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 20, 2017 4:28 PM  

@96 DonReynolds - my story, as I said, about the royal charter which was expressly obtained for the commercial development of the cod fishery. It was for the Plymouth Colony or Massachusetts Bay Company -- these are John Winthrop's Pilgrims. Yes, this is the next group after the _Mayflower_, whom they joined. The same conditions applied, starvation and mud-hut living. They would not really get into the fishery for another generation, despite the fact it was the basis for their charter.

To be fair, there was a high level of duplicity involved with that charter. They never really cared about the cod obviously, it was more about establishing a degree of political independence (which is why the crown revoked it later).

But that's all I will say about the matter here, this is already too far afield of the topic. I'd say when someone begs indulgence for an aside, why not grant it?

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 4:29 PM  

"The Irish are not One People . . ."

Tell it to them, Kid. I believe you mean that the Irish are not fungible.

Now the Swiss, they are not one people. They are four. A confederation of nations, not an island nation.

"One Confederate general said the Union won the war because they had more Irish!"

Yeah, because most of their Irish were actually Scots (and yes, I pointed out here just a couple of days ago that Scots are Irish).

And around we go.

Blogger Student in Blue April 20, 2017 4:51 PM  

@85. Logic
And, it is approximately related to the conclusion but really, it is more complicated than that. And it had nothing to do with changing his mind which is what your comment was about.

Then take a minute, find your testicles, and state the damned premise then. Stop dancing around it like you're the sole keeper of lost knowledge and wasting everyone's time.

Anonymous Logic April 20, 2017 5:31 PM  

@100

I can't because yo mama is using my testicles.

The premise is that VD is right. Who cares about the premise? Read the conclusion. Why are you getting into an argument between kfg and me?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 20, 2017 5:34 PM  

Shut up, Scoobius.

Anonymous kfg April 20, 2017 5:51 PM  

Of course I'm just a mouth breather, so I'm probably too stupid to understand such things, but this . . .

"By this logic, we shouldn't trust you: not in the US and not in Europe, because you might be more loyal to your other blood."

. . . appears to me to be a well formed and (unlike anything else you've written in this thread) coherent premise.

"Who cares about the premise?"

If the _________ is incorrect, the conclusion may be incorrect. However, I have already stipulated the premise. It seems fairly obvious.

1. Chlorophyll is green.
2. Grass contains chlorophyll.
ergo,
3. Vox's grass is green.

Ummmmmmmm, OK? Is that what you came her for, to inform Vox that his grass is green? Did you think he didn't know that?

Come, Man. Stop hacking and cough up the hairball of what you're going on about.

"Why are you getting into an argument between kfg and me?"

Do I really have to quote your own premise, again?

""By this logic, WE shouldn't trust you . . ."

Vox is the subject, but WE (not kfg) are the object. If we weren't the object I wouldn't have taken up the matter between you and Vox.

Anonymous Yankee Imperialist April 20, 2017 6:06 PM  

Sherwood Family...?But...but...they were U.S. citizens. They would never turn on other U.S. citizens. And those interned Japanese turned out to be a-okay."

You need a history lesson. There was no verifiable incident of espionage or sabotage by a Japanese American during the war. During searches of Japanese-American residences conducted by the FBI in early 1941, it was reported that “We have not uncovered through these searches any dangerous persons that we did not otherwise know about.”

Furthermore, 20,000 Japanese Americans, a number of whom came from those relocation camps, served in Europe, with the 442d Regiment as the most highly decorated regiment in American history.

Regarding Fake Americans? Another useless meme.

Blogger Tom Kratman April 20, 2017 6:23 PM  

I could have sworn that a few years back someone here was railing _against_ the internment. There was a quote...mmmm..."Me so Michelle"? That ring any bells?

No matter; anyone can rethink a position and come to a different conclusion.

There were actually a couple of what one might call "waves" to the thing, and a couple of different threats, a couple of different needs and circumstances, and a couple of different approaches.

Simplified version follows:

The first wave was the perfectly legitimate rounding up of enemy aliens. No, there's no requirement to do so - see our failure to round up most Italians and Germans - but it is perfectly permissible. Generally, such civilians are exchanged as soon as can be arranged. There was at least one, and ISTR a couple, of such exchanges.

However, exchanges take time. Along with the first wave, citizens of the Japanese Empire, there were children, often with their own children, who were US citizens but who were not going to see Grandpa and Grandma hauled off to a camp with no one to look after them. They, and their children, if any, thus went voluntarily.

Then there were some - not huge numbers, I think, but some - who thought it was their patriotic duty to be interned, at least initially. Along with that there were probably some who thought it was better to go in voluntarily than risk being lynched by vengeful round eyes.

The involuntary internments came a tad later.

It's also worth noting that the internment didn't cover the east coast and only went as far from the coast as to ensure they were out of range or at the very edge of range of naval aviation. Of course, we didn't do that in Hawaii because we couldn't; no place was out of range of enemy naval aviation. Moreover, Hawaii, with largish ground forces, heavy coast defense batteries, a decent ADA umbrella, and with still a powerful fleet and intact bases, could be defended in a way the west coast of the US could not be; there simply weren't enough troops for anything more than the thinnest of screens on the most likely landing spots. (Was there a real possibility of a Japanese landing? Maybe a smallish raid, but probably not even that. But we didn't know that. We did know that they'd proven surprisingly capable already, enough so that it would have been military malpractice to have ruled out the possibility short of more experience and time-consuming calculations.)

So why didn't we round up the Japanese in Hawaii? We did, in fact, round up some thousands of them. For the rest we took a calculated risk that their labor was more important to the war effort than the risk they presented to the very heavily defended Hawaiian Islands. Nothing required us to take a risk on a place even more important but nearly undefended.

Anonymous Andrew Anglin April 20, 2017 8:20 PM  

to reinforce Vox's point: the "American" Japanese were loyal alright...because America quickly turned the tide in the Pacific War. Had the Japanese kept on winning...Nisei traditional ethnic loyalty would have re-asserted itself.

Blogger Chris Lutz April 20, 2017 8:38 PM  

@105 Actually quite a bit of violence against the Japanese was coming from Filipino's living on the West coast. They weren't too happy about what they were hearing from home either.

Blogger Chris Lutz April 20, 2017 8:52 PM  

@104 No they simply found large amounts of weapons, explosives, and radio equipment after they were order to turn all such material into authorities. Where did you get the FBI quote? Those are often partial statements that hide the full meaning of the report.

No one denies the Japanese-Americans fought well in Europe or that a certain percentage of them overall were loyal. That doesn't obviate that Japanese citizens and those of Japanese ancestry had shown a willingness to help the Japanese Empire. It also doesn't change the fact that the Japanese had an extensive network based on community and business groups.

You know why the Japanese didn't get to commit espionage? We rounded them up and moved them away from the coast.

Anonymous Laz April 20, 2017 9:39 PM  

@104. Yankee Imperialist

"...any dangerous persons that we did not otherwise know about.”

This is the important part of the sentence.

"Furthermore, 20,000 Japanese Americans, a number of whom came from those relocation camps, served in Europe, with the 442d Regiment as the most highly decorated regiment in American history."

Every single old-timer of German descent I've talked too told me they were sent to the Pacific. Funny how nobody ever talks about that...

Blogger Sherwood family April 20, 2017 10:14 PM  

Yankee Imperialist: I don't think I am the one who needs to look at history.

You say, "There was no verifiable incident of espionage or sabotage by a Japanese American during the war."

Might that have to do with the fact that lots of them got interned so they couldn't cause trouble? Besides, the situation noted above invalidates your assertion. We have a documented case of espionage/sabotage as soon as Nisei came into contact with Imperial Japanese soldiers.

You say that the FBI reported in early 1941 that “We have not uncovered through these searches any dangerous persons that we did not otherwise know about.” Which means 1) that they were watching the Japanese/Nisei before Pearl Harbor. Because Pearl Harbor took place at the end of 1941. 2) It also means that they already knew about some. So the FBI was keeping tabs on Nisei before war broke out for "reasons" and those "reasons" were sufficient to find some persons who were deemed dangerous.

That is not to say that there were not some Nisei who were not completely and fantastically loyal to the United States. But even they tell stories about dealing with the other kind.

Ever hear of Daniel Inouye? A loyal Nisei if ever there was one.

Yet, even he recounts that in 1939 his Japanese language school teacher told him and his classmates, "When Japan calls, you must know that it is Japanese blood that flows in your veins." He was thrown out of class for objecting to that kind of sentiment.

History shows that his experience with Japanese nationalists in Japanese language school in the United States was not unique. Or maybe you are familiar with the 7,200 members of the Japanese Military Servicemen's League consisting of Japanese subjects and dual citizens of Japanese ancestry (U.S. Citizens) who annually applied for deferment of military service in Japan through the Japanese Consulates who, as of May 1941 had raised thousands of yen for the Japanese military. This organization had 74 branches throughout the U.S.

Now...I am not arguing that internment was the right thing. What I am saying is that it is stupid to believe that all Nisei were loyal. They weren't. Just as it is stupid to think that every American of German descent was loyal in WWI or WWII. They weren't.

Shortly after the Japanese strike on Pearl Harbor, some 1,260 German nationals were detained and arrested, as the government had been watching them. During WWII, German nationals and German Americans in the US were detained and/or evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis.

A total of 11,507 people of German ancestry were interned during the war. They comprised 36.1% of the total internments under the US Justice Department's Enemy Alien Control Program.

Maybe you are familiar with the German American Bund which encouraged its members to dodge the draft that was instituted in September 1940? There were about 10,000 Bund members in the U.S.

Again...this is not to defend internment. It is to say that individuals living in the U.S. with strong foreign ties present a problem of loyalty. As anyone who has gone through the security clearance process knows strong foreign ties can be enough to prevent you from getting a clearance.

Look at Chinese espionage: Larry Wu-Tai Chin, Katharina Leung, Peter Lee, Chi Mak, Moo Ko Suen
What do you think these cases have in common? I will let you guess.

How about Israeli espionage? Look up sayanim sometime.

How about Steven John Lalas? American of Greek descent. Spied for Greece from 1977 until 1993.

All of which is to say: blood is very often thicker than anything else and it is stupid to assume that it will not come into play at very inconvenient times.










Anonymous Marvin Boggs April 20, 2017 10:25 PM  

@6: my great uncle was captured in defense of Hong Kong in WWII. While interned, he kept a diary (very dangerous thing to do - literally put his head at risk). I read that diary. Lock'em up and lose the key. Not all cultures are of equal value.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein April 20, 2017 10:39 PM  

Holy Equine Resurrection!!!

Blogger fssaf April 21, 2017 1:26 AM  

Why exactly should the japanese have been "loyal" to "america" when america was fighting against hitler and pushing international communism?

I don't think the japanese were disloyal to the american people, just to the idea that america's role was to support communist china/russia, and have sole discretion to harvest oil in southeast asia.

ww2 was not the peak of american virtue, but one of the troughs.

Blogger SteelPalm April 21, 2017 2:05 AM  

I'm also slightly surprised that Vox and other commentators, who are gung-ho about sinking the boats and mass repatriation (as they should be), nevertheless have a degree of hesitation about something as benign as Japanese internment camps. (Most Europeans of that time would have killed for 3 square meals a day, a warm bed, and baseball clubs)

Keep in mind that the Japanese POW camps for American and Chinese prisoners, by contrast, were worse than the Nazi death camps in Europe (and this is coming from a Russian Jew!), and their hyper-militaristic, bloodthirsty, imperial culture would have offered no mercy to the US, as they offered none to either China or Korea.

There is even a nice analogue between the kamikaze pilots and Muslim jihadis.

So why the softness on the Japanese? I like and respect their culture and peoples too, but that doesn't change their crimes or pernicious nature back then.

Blogger fssaf April 21, 2017 2:14 AM  

Cultures fighting for their very survival have a tendency to spare no mercy for their attackers. Germany only began killing jews once feeding them became even less feasible than feeding their own soldier IN A WAR OF DEFENSE against a coalition meant to destroy them.

When germany took the borderlands, it was to rescue ethnic germans from genocide by the polish. Why should they have shown mercy, again?

Similarly, FDR was planning on invading Japan's backyard and searching for a pretext, simultaneous of supporting gobal communism.

For the Japanese, it was a war they were cornered into, and for the Americans, it was a war to become even richer and expand imperial territory

it's easy to be 'nice' to your enemies whom you are threatening with extermination when the worst consequences of failure are that you are simply less rich.

How does neoreaction suddenly go soft and start supporting american communist ambition in the ww2 era? it's astounding.

Blogger fssaf April 21, 2017 2:40 AM  

Final post unless there is significantly less hand wringing in the follow up.

The Japanese believed in the supremacy of settled, peaceful cultures, who had been, since the bronze age, genocided, killed, herded, and destroyed by aggressive expansionists. Some recountings of Japanese prehistory have it that the Japanese monarchy fled northern China during the Zhou dynasty, driven out by pastoralists.

The Japanese correctly realized that the planet would either belong to barbarians doing barbarian things, barbarians aping civilized behavior, or that the meek, passive people must rise up and make the world safe for themselves.

That's exactly what they attempted to do.

America's vision would cede control of the world to loudest whiner, and gives the gun to the most violent complainer. Japanese ethics would give the gun to the quiet one with restraint.

America was not the hero in ww2. Why should anyone, white americans even, celebrate what was done. America delivered the world into global communism.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 21, 2017 3:11 AM  

@116 fssaf
Final post unless there is significantly less hand wringing in the follow up.

Promise?

Anonymous Laz April 21, 2017 8:11 AM  

"For the Japanese, it was a war they were cornered into..."

Bullshit. They cornered themselves by taking on the US while already at war.

Anonymous Laz April 21, 2017 8:15 AM  

"The Japanese believed in the supremacy of settled, peaceful cultures..."

Yeah, if settled and peaceful means imperialistic expansionism.

Blogger SteelPalm April 21, 2017 8:18 AM  

@117

One can only hope. Anyone dumb enough to think that the Japanese back then were "settled, peaceful" and were attacked by the mean old US is on the same level of delusion as those who believe Islam is "peaceful" and is being attacked by the mean old West.

Blogger Jaycephus April 21, 2017 8:29 AM  

DonReynolds wrote:@3 Jaycephus

The explosion on Black Tom Island was on July 30th, 1916. There are claims that the munitions were intended for Russia, but this was well-before the March 1917 overthrow of the Czar and the second revolution in November 1917, which brought the Bolsheviki to power.


Right, so had the munitions been headed for Czarist Russia, they may have helped defeat the Bolsheviks. But I am not informed enough to know if the stockpile would have made a difference in Russia or not. It's a possible point of alternate history, though.

Blogger Gospace April 21, 2017 11:29 AM  

Hawaii wasn't a state. It was a territory, and part of the United States.

Anonymous Yankee Imperialist April 21, 2017 12:40 PM  

Sherwood family...

“Might that have to do with the fact that lots of them got interned so they couldn't cause trouble?”

Might that have to do with the fact that, as far as I know, there was not an act of treason committed by those Japanese who were not interned who lived in the Midwest or East Coast?

What about those Japanese-American soldiers who served in Europe? Why did the federal government trust these individuals by drafting them or enabling them to join our military?

“Besides, the situation noted above invalidates your assertion. We have a documented case of espionage/sabotage as soon as Nisei came into contact with Imperial Japanese soldiers.”


No, there was no act of spying or act of destroying a military installation. We have a documented case of two Japanese-Americans aiding and abetting a pilot who engaged in an act of war. In other words, they conspired with an enemy once they discovered what he had done.

“You say that the FBI reported in early 1941 that “We have not uncovered through these searches any dangerous persons that we did not otherwise know about.” Which means 1) that they were watching the Japanese/Nisei before Pearl Harbor. Because Pearl Harbor took place at the end of 1941. 2) It also means that they already knew about some. So the FBI was keeping tabs on Nisei before war broke out for "reasons" and those "reasons" were sufficient to find some persons who were deemed dangerous.”

Indeed, SOME Japanese-Americans who harbored loyalty to their “motherland”. Then the federal government would deal harshly with that particular dangerous element. But there was an ASSUMPTION that most or all Japanese-Americans would follow suit. At that time, the federal government in a time of war engaged in an action they deemed to be in the interest of national security. In retrospect, the action was ultimately based in large part on an irrational fear that an entire group would demonstrate pervasive acts of disloyalty. However, I am able to see why, at that time, this move was made by our government and military.

“Again...this is not to defend internment. It is to say that individuals living in the U.S. with strong foreign ties present a problem of loyalty. As anyone who has gone through the security clearance process knows strong foreign ties can be enough to prevent you from getting a clearance.”

Exactly, individuals. Not an entire group. And this “problem” has to be looked at intensely as to its extent and the likelihood that the group on average will defend the interests of other than their “host” country.

After thinking long and hard about it, since Muslims are a dire threat to life and limb to Western Civilization--in particular to the United States--we ought to ask them kindly to give up their citizenship and leave. If they choose not to, then let's round them up, put them in a boat, and sink it. That would be most humane in the long run. After all, there is a war to win. Why send them home when they could be our enemy in the future? Captain John H. Miller made that fateful mistake, why should our nation be "benevolent"?

Blogger Flair1239 April 21, 2017 12:58 PM  

The woman Tucker Carlson had on, Thursday 4/20/17, an illegalwho ended up working for Goldman Sachs, then becoming a citizen through marriage. Proves the point of this article.

She became a citizen and promptly starts advocating for open borders. Once Third world non-whites gain citizenship and attached right to vote, they will promptly advocate for more of their people to be allowed the same.

I have been a civic Nationalist to this point, but I don't see it working and having done more research I don't think it can work. At least not in a crisis environment, which seem to be unavoidably cyclical.

Anonymous Mr. Rational April 21, 2017 2:57 PM  

@123  Waste of a boat.  Put in a tightly-sealed room, purge with nitrogen, wait 20 minutes.  Quiet and painless.

Blogger fssaf April 21, 2017 3:50 PM  

moldbug was right. the majority of even neorxers are idiots who will support communists at home like FDR who waged wars of aggression against racially pure foreign countries in order to push race mixing agendas...

why do you guys support it though? how fucking stupid are you?

Anonymous kfg April 21, 2017 5:51 PM  

"Hawaii wasn't a state . . . and part of the United States."

You keep using that word.

Anonymous Avalanche April 21, 2017 7:18 PM  

@11 " When you have a large number of people and you can't tell the good from the bad, what can you do except remove them all?"

Hence our necessary moslem and S. American solution. They must go back

Anonymous kfg April 21, 2017 9:44 PM  

Two birds with one stone:

http://gatesofvienna.net/2017/04/welcoming-the-caliphate-to-brazil/

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 22, 2017 1:41 AM  

@fssaf

"why do you guys support it though? how fucking stupid are you?"

You're conflating two separate issues here. FDR should not have gotten us involved in the War of Communist Expansion-- sure. But given that he succeeded in doing so, rounding up the Japanese was just common sense. A minor issue in the grand scheme of things. How many non-German gaijin were running around free in Japan?

A side note: J. Edgar Hoover was very much opposed to the Japanese internment. That may well have been a bureaucratic/ expanding his own empire issue, though. Whose agents would have been keeping track of all of the Japanese, and watching for spies and sabotage, after all?

Anonymous Yankee Imperialist April 22, 2017 8:49 AM  

"Waste of a boat. Put in a tightly-sealed room, purge with nitrogen, wait 20 minutes. Quiet and painless."

Then you are in charge of your own solution. Are you up to the task, or are you going to shirk your responsibility?

Anonymous Mr. Rational April 22, 2017 11:45 AM  

@132  I'm doing what I can do right now, and that's planting ideas and raising awareness.

When it comes time to identify and commit resources, people will at least have an idea of what to do and how to do it.

Anonymous Yankee Imperialist April 22, 2017 2:41 PM  

"I'm doing what I can do right now, and that's planting ideas and raising awareness."

Which is essentially means you are sitting on the sidelines and allowing
invasion after invasion to occur right before your eyes. The information is already out there. Plans have been laid out. It is time to execute them. Obviously you lack the stomach to be front and center.

No need to belabor this point any further...

Blogger Roger G2 April 22, 2017 6:22 PM  

I always thought the Arsenal of Democracy can be excused for the internment. It was one little error of practically zero consequence: the people interned were treated very well, far better even than German POW's(who were treated pretty much as migrant laborers)-especially when one condsiders the death camps of Eastern Europe.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 24, 2017 3:38 PM  

Yankee Imperialist wrote:After thinking long and hard about it, since Muslims are a dire threat to life and limb to Western Civilization--in particular to the United States--we ought to ask them kindly to give up their citizenship and leave. If they choose not to, then let's round them up, put them in a boat, and sink it.

Yes.

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